Originally posted by laura Howe: I am doing our kitchen/hall/1/2 bath over.I was told Durock was the product to use.I found it at Lowes.Would either of these other 2 products be the better choice? I am planning on using ceramic tile and there is existing flooring we are going over?Any help is greatly appreciated.
What's your existing flooring? Your first concern needs to be your floor joists. Are they strong enough to support the massive load of the tile your about to put on it? 2x12 joists spaced a maximum of 16" on center is acceptable. Next move up to the wood subfloor. How thick is the existing plywood. You need a minimum of 1 1/4" thickness to achieve good results. Typical homes have 3/4" plywood or OSB subfloors. Add a layer of 1/2 backerboard or BX plywood to get to your 1 1/4" thickness. If you need added strength use an inexpensive thinset mortar under the backerboard (not plywood) and screw the new layer ever 6-8 inches. If your subfloor is not strong enough your tile will fail. Cracks, loose grout and popped tiles will result. There are ways around the joist size and spacing as well as the subfloor thickness. If you trust your suppliers advice ask how to over come these obsticles. Seek info from thinset manufactures. They don't want your tile to fail when using their product any more than you do. If all else fails hire a QUALIFIED tile installer. Not all general contractors have the experience needed to install tile. Get references and see existing work.
Posts: 6 | Location: Washington DC | Registered: 11 February 2005
Most vinyl floors are not installed over a thick enough wood subfloor. In most cases a layer of 1/4 luan or finish grade plywood are installed to prep the floor for a smooth installation. Vinyl will show any imperfections in the subfloor so this is a critical step in the installation process. This 1/4 layer of plywood is not structural and should be removed and replaced with 1/2 backerboard. You may be able to get away with installing a layer of 1/4" backerboard over the vinyl floor. The vinyl needs to be 100% bonded not perimeter glued and a latex modified thinset should be used to bond the backerboard along with screws every 6". Tear up the old floor you will get better results.
If the vinyl is non-cushioned, 100% glued down and over concrete it is not neccesary to remove the old floor. Use a high-end latex modified thinset or substitute liquid latex additive instead of water during mixing of your mortar.
Posts: 6 | Location: Washington DC | Registered: 11 February 2005
I'd like to throw in my $.02 on a couple of commebts, but I'll do it all on one post wihout all those quotes.
Laura, 1/2" cement boards don't make for a stronger floor than one with 1/4" board as the cement board is not a structural component of the floor. Whatever you have down right now, remove it and the underlayment. Your home is already built, so you won't be changing your joist size. You don't need 2x12 joists to set tile. What is the size of your joist and their span and spacing? What is your subfloor?
Changeit, I'm sorry. I misse the part about shower wall. The 1/4" hardi has the grid pattern but it cannot span studs. You would need the 1/2". Ditra is not for walls. Schluter does make a membrane called Kerdi which will water proof the wall and can be incorporated as a complete shower system with drain, lining the walls and shower base and curb.
Wilhelm, There isn't really any waterproof adhesive. Tripleflex is about as close as it will get, but if he is water proofing by choice of thinset, I'd worry. If you had a custom built and tiled shower pan, I'd also wonder about the construction of that. You can build showers with a sloped bed and cement board or denshield on the walls, but then you would have to build the liner and cover the walls with REdguard or Latticrete blue92. You could also do the same with Kerdi but would need to use the Kerdi drain, not just your typical clamping drain. I'm curious if you could provide some more details.
Mamjam, I'd suspect they used denshield. As long as it is properly waterproofed at all fastener penetrations and cut edges, it should have held up well. My guess to it's failure was installation error.
Tileman, I'm surprised you even suggested adding 1/4" backer over vinyl. Not only is the vinyl problematic, usually so is the underlayment. There should never be any 1/4" wood products under the backerboard or anywhere in the subfloor sandwich of a tile installation and most commonly that is used under vinyl. Also, the fastening of underlayments for vinyl is not as critical as for a ceramic installation and not removing it can cause problems later on. Ditra can is water proof and the seams between sheets can be sealed with Kerdiband to provide a fully waterproofed installation. Tile over vinyl on a slab--I'd never do it. Liquid latex should only be used with unmodified thinsets. Modified thinsets should only be mixed with water.
There is never an instance where backer boards set to the floor should not have thinset under them.
Our shower has a barrel type ceiling (half circle) and I want to finish it with a small glass tile. Is there such a thing as flexible backerboard or should I use a thin plywood? It is in the shower, won't get wet directly but will certainly be exposed to steam and humidity. What to do?
Chris - You might want to look into Wedi board. I am also interested in hearing from anyone who has used it. It is very lightweight and can be cut to accommodate curves.
Our shower has a barrel type ceiling (half circle) and I want to finish it with a small glass tile. Is there such a thing as flexible backerboard or should I use a thin plywood? It is in the shower, won't get wet directly but will certainly be exposed to steam and humidity. What to do?
Thanks, I will check it out. Seems easy enough and maybe even easier than what I was resigning myself to have to do with plywood or really small strips of backerboard!
Chris
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sab: Chris - You might want to look into Wedi board. I am also interested in hearing from anyone who has used it. It is very lightweight and can be cut to accommodate curves.
I'm a homeowner with a major tile problem. My builder put ceramic 12" tile down on plywood and the group keeps working loose. What are my alternatives? I keep replacing the grout and it only lasts a few weeks. Am I going to have to tear it all out and put down backerboard? But that, too, presents a problem. The tile joins hardwood and addition of backerboard will make the kitchen area higher than the hardwood by the depth of the backerboard. Is there a grout that will work so I don't have to replace the tile?
Posts: 1 | Location: tennessee | Registered: 28 March 2005
I am remodeling my bathroom. the lady that lived in the house before me had carpeting in the bathroom. I pulled it up and found that there was tile underneath. I have tried just about everything to get the adehisve off the existing tile and have failed. The existing tile floor is rock solid. I do not want to rip it up so I bought the hardi backerboard and am going to throw that over the existing tile floor following instructions of laying the hardi board over thinset and then screwing into place. Just wondering if anyone see's a problem in doing this?
dfabian, try an adhesive remover or a heat gun to soften it. You may need to regrout but you should be able to get the tile surface clean. Backer boards won't work in your situation because your never going to get it screwed down. All esla fails, get the tile surface clean, rake out the grout a bit and skim with modifed thinset and tile over the old tile.
TN, If the tile keep working loose, there is a movement problem or wht wrong plywood/thinset was used. What's your joist spacing, size, and span? If you are meeting 3/4 hardwood and you have 1/2" ply down over your subfloor then tile, you can rip it out, replace with 3/8" bc or better exterior grade ply and then use DItra as your underlayment which togehter will be the same height as your original 1/2" overlay and is acceptable up to 24" oc joists. My bet on the tile installation is they went on the cheep with the wrong type of ply and the wrong type of thinset.
Wouldn't a DITRA type product placement work over the tile?
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Originally posted by tilebri: dfabian, try an adhesive remover or a heat gun to soften it. You may need to regrout but you should be able to get the tile surface clean. Backer boards won't work in your situation because your never going to get it screwed down. All esla fails, get the tile surface clean, rake out the grout a bit and skim with modifed thinset and tile over the old tile.
Sab, You'd still want to get the tile cleaned off at which point, you can tile directly over the old tile without any problems. If the tile was cracked over a mud bed that cracked with no verticle movement present, I'd be reluctant to use Ditra over a non pourous substrate that will see point loads. DItra should be set using a modified thinset which will take forever for the latex component to dry out if the only place for the vapor to evaporate from the latex component was through some grout lines. Other option would be to chip off the old tile and fix any dug out spots on the mud bed and then use Ditra, but then again, that would only be if it's cracked.
Thanks for the clarification! My experience comes from new projects only and from an artistic point of view, not construction. I live in Texas and discovery of the underlayment products seems to be the answer to our gumbo soil and constant shifting. I enjoy benefiting from the vast experience levels here.
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Originally posted by tilebri: Sab, You'd still want to get the tile cleaned off at which point, you can tile directly over the old tile without any problems. If the tile was cracked over a mud bed that cracked with no verticle movement present, I'd be reluctant to use Ditra over a non pourous substrate that will see point loads. DItra should be set using a modified thinset which will take forever for the latex component to dry out if the only place for the vapor to evaporate from the latex component was through some grout lines. Other option would be to chip off the old tile and fix any dug out spots on the mud bed and then use Ditra, but then again, that would only be if it's cracked.
I found this message very helpful. So I'm hoping for further information. I am currently working on getting a new shower system installed. We rupped out the old tile and backboards and are down to the studs. The required plumbing is done and we are just in the midst of reviewing several quotes from tilers. We are interested in using the Schluter system for the base, drain, curb and walls. two issues have come up that I need help with: 1) There seems to be various theories on how high the Kerdi should go up the wall (just a foot or 2 or all the way up to the top of the tile). Which is better? 2) It seems that every tiler we spoke with recommends different backer board. We've heard from a number of people that Denshiled is the way to do in a shower, with the Schluter and epoxy grout. We've also been told about Hardi board, Wonder board, and now the latest - EasyBoard (by CBP). What is the concensus and are there any opinions out there on this EasyBoard (ultra-light backerboard)?
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Originally posted by TILEMAN: There are 4 basic types of ceramic tile backerboard. Cement based, gypsum based, plywood and the newer lightweight plastic type. All are available from different manufactures and suppliers. Each are meant to be used in conjunction with your home's floor joists,subfloor and mortar to create a stable platform for the finished product (ceramic,stone porcelain etc...) This is usually referred to as a subfloor system.
1)Cement base backerboard-constructed of light-weight concrete and fiberglass mesh reinforcement. Known under the brand names of Durock by USG or Wonderboard by C.B.P. Each are comparable in price and application. These products can be used on walls, floors and countertops. All perform very well when exposed to moisture.
2)Gypsum based - There are two types. One similar to drywall known as "Greenboard" or "Blueboard" for the color of its water-resistant paper coating. It is acceptable ONLY for wall-tile installation. Widely used in many new homes showers this product has a limited lifespan and WILL fail due to continued exposure to moisture (5-10 yrs). As a rule I never use this product. It is for production housing and problematic. The second type is constucted of gypsum, cement and fiberglass. A far better choice offering ease of use and moisture resistance. Typically has a more regular surface than the cement type backerboard which makes installation easier especially for the D.I.Y. Can be used on floors, walls and countertops. Not the best choice for some floor applications. Known under the brand names Hardi-backer and Fiber-rock. 3)Plywood - The "Original" tile backer board. Used mainly on floors and countertops. Use exterior rated plywood only as other types may delaminate when exposed to moisure during installation and use. DO NOT USE OSB,PARTICLE BOARD or MDF as they are not stable in any installation. Even exterior plywood will react poorly to moisure and is not always the best choice.
4) Plastic type subfloor - Newer to the industry these prducts offer some great performance but are not always the best choice. Pay close attention to and understand the manufacturers installation instructions. I've heard of some horror stories w/ these products but my research has shown that 99% of them arise from improper installation methods not product failure. They can be used to help correct some subfloor issues.
Tile installation is not as easy as some might think. Most failures are cause by improper installation methods. Find a place to get good advise. Don't expect to get good information about installation from your big home improvement warehouses. Go there for price. Research products and follow ALL the installation instructions.
By no special board do you mean ordinary drywall? If so you will have problems down the road. This is not an acceptable method. At a minimum water-resistant green board should be use. As for the "WATERPROOF" adhesive....I would like to know the name of the product he's refering to.
Try using this Adhesive which I have been using as well as others for many years on drywall with no problems as long as all precautions are made and all edges are sealed using 100% Silicon NOT CAULK. My experience in this trade has been 25 years + Ruberoid Waterproof Floor & Wall Tile Adhesive Multi-Purpose & water resistant What it does - Whether you are tiling a shower room, or any other area regularly expected to be under water, you need to use a BS5980 Type 3 class AA water resistant adhesive.
Hi Maybe you can help me. I am tiling my kitchen floor and am planning to use the Hardi, the tiles I am using are cermic italian tiles, is the Hardi a good choice?
For the drywall I was thinking of using the durock for the area near the sink and the dishwasher as well as for a small bit of wall that is on the other side of my bathroom sink. Is this a good idea or can you suggest something better. Shouldn't the whole wall be the same type of drywall? If so, what do you recommend for the kitchen sink arae and dishwasher as well as the section of wall near the bathroom sink.
Sorry if these questions are stupid but you have to start somewhere and ...just look at my screen name... Thanks for the help!
quote:
Originally posted by TILEMAN: There are 4 basic types of ceramic tile backerboard. Cement based, gypsum based, plywood and the newer lightweight plastic type. All are available from different manufactures and suppliers. Each are meant to be used in conjunction with your home's floor joists,subfloor and mortar to create a stable platform for the finished product (ceramic,stone porcelain etc...) This is usually referred to as a subfloor system.
1)Cement base backerboard-constructed of light-weight concrete and fiberglass mesh reinforcement. Known under the brand names of Durock by USG or Wonderboard by C.B.P. Each are comparable in price and application. These products can be used on walls, floors and countertops. All perform very well when exposed to moisture.
2)Gypsum based - There are two types. One similar to drywall known as "Greenboard" or "Blueboard" for the color of its water-resistant paper coating. It is acceptable ONLY for wall-tile installation. Widely used in many new homes showers this product has a limited lifespan and WILL fail due to continued exposure to moisture (5-10 yrs). As a rule I never use this product. It is for production housing and problematic. The second type is constucted of gypsum, cement and fiberglass. A far better choice offering ease of use and moisture resistance. Typically has a more regular surface than the cement type backerboard which makes installation easier especially for the D.I.Y. Can be used on floors, walls and countertops. Not the best choice for some floor applications. Known under the brand names Hardi-backer and Fiber-rock. 3)Plywood - The "Original" tile backer board. Used mainly on floors and countertops. Use exterior rated plywood only as other types may delaminate when exposed to moisure during installation and use. DO NOT USE OSB,PARTICLE BOARD or MDF as they are not stable in any installation. Even exterior plywood will react poorly to moisure and is not always the best choice.
4) Plastic type subfloor - Newer to the industry these prducts offer some great performance but are not always the best choice. Pay close attention to and understand the manufacturers installation instructions. I've heard of some horror stories w/ these products but my research has shown that 99% of them arise from improper installation methods not product failure. They can be used to help correct some subfloor issues.
Tile installation is not as easy as some might think. Most failures are cause by improper installation methods. Find a place to get good advise. Don't expect to get good information about installation from your big home improvement warehouses. Go there for price. Research products and follow ALL the installation instructions.
Please give me your opinions of which order you think I should proceed. I am (1) replacing the bathroom tile floor with tile, (2) replacing the stall shower tile walls with tile and (3) building a wet bed base in the shower.
