My husband has a theory about why our basement still leaks, almost every time we get significant rain, despite exterior waterproofing applied (by him) a couple of years ago. I'd like to know if this is even possible, because he wants to dig out my foundation again, and it was an awful, muddy, dangerous mess last time he did it: He theorizes that, because we now have a very slight horizontal crack in that foundation (block) wall (due, I believe, to us thinking it was okay to drive our vehicle up the front yard, just outside that wall, after we backfilled and regraded after the waterproofing -- I think the crack is from the vehicle weight pushing the not-yet-settled backfill into the wall)... Sorry, long sentence! Anyway, he thinks that the horizontal crack was just enough to cause a bit of a gap between the slab floor and the block wall (block wall rests ON TOP of slab, not outside and next to it). He theorizes that the water he's now redirecting from our gutters down into the french drain he laid outside the slab is flowing OUT of the french drain and through that new crack between the slab and the bottom of the wall. The water appears very soon after the (heavy) rain begins. My take on this is -- if we then remove those downspouts so that they're NOT dumping into the french drain, the infiltration into the basement should stop! Simple test. He wants to start digging. I need to stop him.
The cracks in the wall are, at their biggest, a gap of .2". Is this enough movement to cause a gap at the bottom of the wall so that water would start coming in where it didn't before? (The previous leaks that we waterproofed against were clearly high up on the wall; it's now hard to see where - from the inside - the water is coming.)
ABSOLUTELY discoonect the downspouts from the underground piping! The water flowing down the downspouts could be pressurizing the underground pipe, and as you surmise, pumping water INTO the foundation.
Aside from that, if there are cracks inside, there could possibly be cracks outside. We don't know what kind of waterproofing was applied when you excavated outside; folks often confuse dampproofing with waterproofing, and they are NOT the same thing.
In any event, disconnect the downspouts from the underground pipe, and add extensions to the bottom of the downspouts to get that water at least 8 feet away from the house, and see what happens before you go excavating again.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2570 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
Sorry but can`t back track right now and read all prior posts so....... Hubby waterproofed 1 block wall couple years ago, ya live in the Peach state,GA. He applied a 'paint on' mastic/tar and foam board.
Don`t see anything about him using hydraulic cement in/over all-any cracks and any-other openings. Don`t see anything about backfilling with most,all gravel.
Did he use hyd cement before applying a PAINT ON...THIN mastic? Did he apply a 6 mil+ visqueen? Gravel backfill? Did he identify the possibility of water not only entering THROUGH exterior cracks but also possibly through ABOVE ground opening(s)?
Some are open mortar joints,loose-cracked bricks,openings under/around/through any windows and doors and so on.
Possibilities of water entry are pretty much the same as they were 2 years ago. IF....he didn`t use hydraulic cement then its quite possible some,parts of any crack(s) are...STILL OPEN.Thin,paint on damproofing simply isn`t enough to bridge most cracks, to keep water from getting in the cracks and eventually onto basement floor.
IF....he didn`t backfill w/most-all gravel and used SAME excavated backfill soil then, it`s quite possible the junk backfill pulled down some,parts of that board he put against wall,could have pulled down/not allowed the thin-paint on mastic to set,exposing parts of any crack(s) to water intrusion.
This soil can also STILL expand and contract,shrink and swell. If he used same soil and its not sand then, when it rains the soil gets WET and can still expand,push against a wall,cause movement,cause existing crack to widen, sometimes a little and sometimes alot.
IF....he didn`t use visqueen right on the wall,right against the thin mastic, again, its possible, the thin tar didn`t 'bridge'the crack...didn`t really seal/waterproof the crack(s).Visqueen would have helped keep the backfilled soil OFF the thin mastic,allowing it the opportunity to set.The mastic/tar can come off ONTO-the-soil, off the wall,thats why visqueen is initially needed and NOT just some kind of board which doesn`t 'stick to', doesn`t actually adhere to the mastic.
It`s possible, when using EQUIPMENT to backfill, to cause protection board/membrane to pull down or cause it to partially come OFF wall,especially down low.If part or alot of that comes off and the thin paint on mastic hasn`t set then it too will come off the wall.
Its possible some-any settling of-the-soil AGAINST the wall,especially when it rains,when it gets wet can cause a crack, existing crack to widen,leak.
And its possible that the exterior is OK long as everything was done right and water may be entering through ABOVE ground opening(s). It can/could first enter through above grade pathways, get into the cores/the blocks and come out at,along the wall-floor joint....yep, sure could.
This is in part, why running a water test w/a hose is pretty dang important BEFORE doing xyz,before spending time `n money.Ya want to know where all the openings/problems are.
It`s also possible you had,still have a possible back-up under the floor, between the house `n street and when it rains water accumulates and then rises up....under the floor and could come up through any gap/crack/opening in the floor.If you have a storm trap cleanout,unscrew the cap and check it and s n a k e it if necessary or to rule this posibility in/out.If ya have a sump pump and pit, this also needs to be checked. Some people only need holes drilled in sump pit wall,right under thickness of bsmt floor. Others need a sump adjustment,others may need new sump and so on.
Yep, sometimes there are 2-3+ ways,different openings/problems/causes and fixing one doesn`t solve/correct the others. NOT saying thats what you good folks have.
Can only give you the PROBABILITIES.
'Other' homeowners who may be reading this and have just had 1+ walls waterproofed, COULD have x-amount of water locked up INSIDE some of the blocks and so, it needs to be drained out,let out then sealed.
You ask, is it possiblec a vehicle,its WEIGHT and added subsequent underground lateral pressure cause a crack,cause an existing crack to widen,cause some movement and leak? Imo, yes, it`s...possible. More possible if someone drove-over the backfilled soil.
As recommended here and in previous posts, i would do a water-test BEFORE doing anything else.
I`d run water into whatever was backfilled against the wall, from ground level down. Do NOT wet/soak anything above ground level.
Run the hose, the water at-near FULL blast,NOT a lil trickle.....you want to know,you need to know and ya have to do this water test correctly, otherwise you could get a false-test.
Run the water on the outside of the area(s) where you get/see water enter INSIDE.Run the water up to about 45 minutes or so, or of course until you notice water begin to enter. If water enters you have found either PART of ALL of where water is fisrt entering, through cracks etc below ground on the outside of the block wall and it`ll need to be waterproofed and backfilled correctly.
On another day, run the water,spray the water against any bsmt window(s),doors,fisrt floor windows,bricks,siding etc. Ya gotta isolate each one, soak em/spary em one at a time, have someone in basement watching. If water enters while yer spraying a basement window then this is part/all of problem....and so on. Don`t forget to, if you want, check the storm trap cleanout,sump pump etc. May as well check all possibilites
--Severity of Problem 'Swelling soils are a nationwide problem'. Canada too...got milk?
'Each year shrinking and swelling soils inflict billions in damages to houses,buildings,roads etc....more than twice the damage from floods,hurricanes,tornadoes and hurricanes...'
A few pic`s from U S Army Corps of Engineers,Amherst NY http://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/AmherstSoilStudy/photos/photos.html pic 1)Lateral pressure CAUSING typical 45 degree stair-step crack in block basement wall pic 2)Lateral pressure CAUSING vertical mid-span crack in basement wall pic 3)Lateral pressure CAUSING top of basement wall to bow inward 9 inches (pilasters failed to brace wall)
Pic 1...ya see inside system? Patch job,maybe an injection in 2,can`t see good enough 3....can`t wait for someone to post back and say, 'Duh oh, they shoulda used carbon straps,would have solved everything'
I come here to commiserate - it's nice to know I'm not the only one suffering this lousy problem.
I decided to try the easiest solution first - disconnected the one easily redirectable downspout to see if taking SOME water out of the french drain would lessen the likelihood of overflow FROM the drain, and stop the leak.
We had 3" of rain in one night, and water's coming in from a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLACE. (May well still be coming in from the original spot, too -- there's so much water in the basement that we cannot tell.)
We really need a qualified, smart person to come look at our house/yard. I can find engineers -- but how do I find one who knows hydro, structural, foundation, grading - everything?
We had a women out to look at the crack in the block wall, and she just really didn't seem that interested. Yet had no problem taking her fee. I want someone who wants to fix it as much as I want it fixed, but have no idea how to find that person.
Don`t know if 'easy' solution is the right word,so to speak,even though we all say this. There will be a 'solution(s)' for whatever the problem(S) are.Yep, some will turn out to be 'easy' or should i say 'less expensive,not costly at all'...as is stated in this link,'IF' this is part or all of the problem
Cincinnati metro sewer district http://www.msdgc.org/downloads/wib/common_causes_wet_basement.pdf ...alot here is true but i do not agree w/every sentence. Best is on Pg 2 and 4.... 'Fixing the Problem' ...fixing your wet basement may (might) be as 'easy'<-- (not expensive) as rodding your drainage or LATERAL LINE.
Pg 4 'Broken or Clogged Lateral Lines' ...when your house was built an underground network of pipes was installed....as your home AGES, so do the pipes...these pipes may get clogged,crack,break,separate or even collapse...
...Also, as the ground around your house settles, the ANGLE of the pipe may shift...IF/when this happens...water can back-up into your house....water can EASILY back-up through IMPERFECTIONS in your floor,wall
-Sewer Line Backups IF....your LATERAL line is clogged or broken, water in the line has nowhere to go and can back up into your basement...groundwater can get INTO a lateral line through any cracks or separated joints.
So....wouldn`t hurt to have this possibility checked. Sometimes its part of the problem, sometimes its all of the problem,sometimes its not the problem at all.
WHERE are you guys located??? If your in PA maybe Richard or in NJ maybe Home Care or, if in MN maybe Jay is close to you or if in MI then SDW,Capizzo,myself etc may be able to help.You can call me if you wish,let me know,will try to help
Your other probabilities/possibilities we`ve discussed....crack(s) and/or other exterior openings on the outside of the wall(s) and/or, above grade openings such as open mortar joints,openings/gaps in-around-under basement windows,any window,openings under-around any door and so on. And of course a possible blockage between house `n street or beyond/city.
So unless you have some sort of inside/interior plumbing leak(s) or lots of condensation etc going on then its one or two or all three of those things/probabilities listed.
Here is homeowner who had 3 sump pumps installed and an inside system....can SEE it, can see the floor cut-out etc.Still getting water.The problem or problemSS were not correctly identified/diagnosed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-uw3XolQpY
Just scrolled back `n saw/remembered your in GA, sorry, don`t know anyone there!
MK I would submise that removal of the down spout from the underground connection may have made matters worse. Most likely your leak is a crack somewhere above the underground drain that you have that is not doing it's job. Once you removed the drain from this pipe system you allowed more water to drain onto the top of the soil even if you piped it away several feet. Water moves sideways too. This then allowed for more water to settle near what most likely you have a crack higher up on the wall. Thus more leaks.
With all the stuff LicensedwaterproofR said which is the correct way to do things for good. It all comes down to proper repairs. That is removal of the soil were the suspected leak occurs. Clean the wall with wire brushes and a hose if need be. Fill all large cracks with cement. Then fill all the others with a good quality mastic. Cover with plastic and back fill with gravel. Not soil. Cap the top of the soil with a ground cloth to prevent the soil from plugging the stone and landscape over that. Of course you need to fix any pipes that may have been damaged or plugged from sand or silt.
Posts: 1123 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 31 January 2006
Unfortunately, we have a complicated landscape. Proper correction will require regrading of approx 1/4 acre uphill from the house, removal of retaining walls, pool deck, pool (installed, unbelievably, at a HIGHER level than the house but right next to it), and digging through much red clay - 1/2 acre away from a protected stream. Big money to do right, big money to do wrong (when we have to pay the erosion control fines).
When we removed the downspout from the french drain, we piped it onto a steeply downhill sloping walk. We watched, and the water flowed down the walk, onto the driveway, and away from the house.
The "new" leak is actually UPHILL from that. We've now redirected THAT downspout elsewhere, to see if it has any impact, when we get our additional 2-4" of (highly dreaded) rain tonight.
I'm inclined to just throw out everything we have in the basement and hope for the best. I also hope, someday, to show up unannounced at the front door of the builder, punch him in the mouth, and walk away.
I'm still interested in all ideas, and especially in tips for finding a qualified engineer to help me determine the best slow, careful approach for debugging this poor design.
I wish I had the product names that we used when we waterproofed. We did dig to the slab, clean the wall, looked for cracks but saw none, at that point, covered with roll on waterproofing, then a membrane and, finally, a foam board of some sort. Our plan was better than any that any "waterproofer" was offering but, with the placement of the house on the lot, not good enough, I guess.
When I win the lottery, I will either fix my house, or blow it up. Until then, I will investigate all possible alternatives. So keep bringing 'em on!
