they state Paragraphs 6 & 7 "Even more important to keeping a basement dry is the foundation backfill process. We firmly believe a foundation should be backfilled with washed gravel(peastone),Not dirt,from the basement floor level all the way up to within 2-3" of the finished ground level outside the home.This type of drainage prevents trapped water & saturated soil next to the foundation from building up horizontal hydrostatic pressure against the wall. This pressure will crack walls, cause leaks and in worse cases collapse the wall inward.Despite these FACTS,most local building codes require only 18" of coverage from the bottom up. The additional cost for full height backfill is approx. $3,000. For this reason, most builders provide only the minimum coverage required by codes."
Like i`ve said all along, the best thing to help lessen lateral & hydrostatic pressure agst the outside of bsmt walls is to backfill with all peastone/gravel.It also is the best drainage along basement walls...end of story.
Waterproofer, I must admit that I don't install waterproofing myself, but I do specify it and I am responsible for such designs. I agree with your recommendations for keeping water out of subgrade spaces, and that working on the outside of the walls is the only viable solution.
I would like to add a couple of comments. The use of pea gravel does eliminate potential problems with puncturing the waterproof membrane, but in some areas graded crushed stone may produce substantial savings. However, to prevent puncturing the membrane, a protection board is required between the stone and the membrane.
I would also like to recommend, regardless of stone type, to place a pourous fabric between the earth and the stone to prevent the earth from migrating into the spaces between the stone, which would result in clogging up the drain path.
In my practice I have had to design some subgrade spaces where not only were leaks to be avoided, but humidity must be kept very low. And all that while there were several major conduit and pipe penetrations through the wall. The walls were protected much as you have described, and we protected the penetrations with commercially available flanges designed for that purpose. Oh yes, the bottom two feet of the installation are below the water table. We had to add extra concrete to keep it from floating away. And here we are some five years later, and still no complaints of dampness.
Your first post did not mention a drain at the bottom of the footing, but that is the only way to divert the water away from the house. I believe you might have mentioned it in a later post.
Grading the earth away from the house is an important component of the waterproofing system. Alone, grading will not suffice, but it does minimize the amoung of water making its way to the walls.
Finally, I am also skeptical of many of the so-called experts, even those on HGTV. The first sign of lack of knowledge of these experts is the terminlogy they use. To make it worse, they are using kitchen phrases to describe the work. C'mon, who would ever mix concrete until it has the consistency of oatmeal?!?!? There are highly quantitative methods of describing work, if they will only take the time to learn them.
per your statement about puncturing the membrane, when WE backfill with peastone, it is wheelbarrow after `barrow, Never with any kind of equipment. After all these years it has Never punctured/ruined the waterproofing just completed to the wall.The main use of the visqueen is to....protect what we just did to the wall while backfilling....hydraulic cement of cracks/openings and thick tar....IMO, that IS its main use. The openings/cracks etc....if correctly sealed with hydraulic cement and then applying a Thick tar is what is going to prevent-stop water from entering the walls,and with the peastone/gravel backfill...water will NOT sit up against the wall,its not gonna happen.Full & immediate drainage from ground level to footing.Sure, the visqueen will help keep water-moisture off the tar as well so that the tar will set/harden faster, but the Hydr. cement has already sealed the cracks and the tar Will eventually set regardless.
Some guys/companies want to also install/place styrofoam or protection board types agst walls, and if the homeowner wants to pay for that fine, go ahead,imo.....its Not necessary.Its just that quite a few companies-contractors around these parts will bs homeowners into the use of it as a "must' to soak more money outta them, i`ve seen-heard them.Some actually will go to the extent of bs`ing the homeowner with statements such as"The styrofoam(or whatever) will help lessen the load/pressure against the outside of the bsmt wall" ....and thats simply a crock of crap.No way any kinda lightweight-cheap plastic etc is going to lessen tons of underground lateral-horizontal or hydrostatic pressure against bsmt walls, c`mon folks, its ridiculous and goes to ridiculous lengths to seduce a homeowner into spending more money, self-interest!
Chuckster...you should be applauded for caring and thinking things through,not many around these parts in this trade give a shtt OR actually have years `n years on actual hands-on knowledge.
Drain tile? Statements made from many,not all, but many about the true functioning-purpose & use of OUTSIDE drain tiles has been twisted `n molded and bs`d to a great extent, Much of what is still being assumed and stated is just Not true!
For instance,if you go back to earlier post you`ll read-see what i mean. Clay tile vs plastic perforated tile etc....first, bsmt waterproofing is all i-we do. After hand digging out thousands upon thousands of basements we have SEEN how & why basements leak.We have seen why `n how some bsmt walls crack,bow,buckle inward, and yes....lolol, we have seen how & why ANY kind of drain tile might get clogged,broken,or the plastic tile flattened by weight of backfill.Even when any tile down there along the footing MAY be broken,clogged-full of hairline roots etc, IF the walls were backfilled with 'all peastone', the water will still get to the T-tile/bleeder at-near the middle of each wall(usually). The water will still travel `n run around,on the side,under any broken-clogged tile and again, get to the hole in the footing where the T is and IF there are No problems UNDER the bsmt floor with the INSIDE tiles then all is well.Even before any kind of waterproofing is done,some water soaks into the adjoining soil,it doesnt all sit just along the walls/footing, and so even if there is-are some broken tiles the same holds true.Yes, in a perfect world, it would be ideal to think that every drop of water actually goes into and through all d.tile,but it doesnt!
Sure, we replace any broken-clogged tile on the outside along the footing BUT, if-when there is a problem under the bsmt floor on the inside a homeowner may notice water come up through floor cracks and-or along the isolation joint(this being their Only problem,no water coming from wall) and will FIRST need to get an honest-experienced plumber `n have them snake through the Storm Drain. Thats where many blockages are and many can be freed by a good plumber.If that doesnt do the trick then a good sump pump or 2 will be needed to...control the water-level under the floor so that on longer/heavier rains, the larger amounts of water dont accumulate under the floor and rise up through floor cracks etc.
What i am honestly saying, and some wont like this cuz its what they think-believe or learned to be true But, the OUTSIDE tiles have....Nothing to do, thats right , nothing to do about why & how a part of, or entire wall+ leaks. The reaon(s) they leak-seep is what i`ve talked about in earlier posts....sorry! Lolol, believe what ya like but no one on this planet will ever convince me or actually'show' me `n my guys how this is possible, its just a bunch of hot-air redundantly being told,printed etc. Like i said, i will replace any bad outside tile,it wont hurt and hey, i`m right there on top of it...no problem, plus it keeps the city inspectors who think that d tiles is the ONLY reason why basements leak, off my azz.
The few cities around here who charge for permits/inspections for waterproofing...when they show up(rarely on time) they are there for about 1 minute, thats it....zip & gone! You would think they would care alot more about how the walls-cracks are sealed, how `n what will be used as backfill, that is whats important folks.. They show up, get out `n come over near the hole-ditch and look down for 10-30 seconds and say "Hows those tiles down there?"...Ummm, well mr inspector, cant you see? Go down there & check em for yourself , thats what the city-the homeowner is paying you to do! See, thats too much to ask of them and besides, they dont wanna get dirty.
Grading? Sure Chuck, i`ll agree w/you/anyone that it doesnt hurt to try `n divert some...'surface water'...away from a home,no problem there. But many people take this to be the Major reason or cause as to why a basement leaks and its just not true!
When people extend their downspout extensions 5-10' further away from the house,all they are doing is channeling-taking SOME surface water away from Some area`s. Same thing with raising `n sloping the grade away. Raise it 5' up to the bedroom window,lolol,and 5' away from the house.
But see, on longer heavier rains That water in 'some' areas that was diverted several feet away is going to.....still go into the ground 5'-10' away from the house and its going to go into the ground in those areas and accumulate spread out--wick in All directions, including back towards the house Underneath the raised grade,under the downspout extensions,under a driveway-patio and If there is a crack/other opening in the bsmt wall, its still going to enter if the crack isnt waterproofed correctly.
There is NO Underground bias...no underground slope...even though the grade may have been raised `n sloped away. Again water in soils will go down and spread-wick sideways in all directions.
I cant tell ya how many times we have waterproofed a wall or part of a wall where a homeowner already had raised the grade,or already had tried to divert sub-surface water with drain tile, or had 1 or more of their driveway slabs mudjacked `n sloped away etc...and when we dug it out there was MORE water 3,4,6' deep against the bsmt walls even though they may have diverted some surface water away and the top 1 or 2' was relatively dry. these diverting means do not keep all water away from the Entire depth of Basement walls, sorry, i wish it were that simple.
Many times we will find decent size pockets of water trapped near or between pieces of concrete,broken blocks,wood,bricks that the Builder backfilled with. They need to haul their garbage away instead of backfilling it against our homes.Just my honest opinions Chuck, formed by years of hands on digging in all soils at all depths on all kinds of diff homes. It would be soo much easier to keep my mouth shut, go will the flow, go along with most of the other companies-contractors and continue bs`ing the public, but i just cant do it & wanst brought up that way.Although, i KNOW i`d have alot More money-wealth if i`d go along and do inside water diverting methods, Plus my back-body would be in much better shape for the simple fact that inside emthods are Much Less labor intensive and alot less costly to do,less materials needed,less insurance-less risk involved YET, many inside companies charge just as much if not more! Now why `n how is this possible? lolol, thats right.....greed.
Not to belabor the point, but getting surface water away from the house will help. You are right that slopes don't matter underground, but gravity and capillary action do.
My point is, if you have a 1" rain, without proper grading, you could end up with 6" or more against the house, just waiting for gravity to suck it down. And you are right, that just takes care of the surface water, but if you keep the surface water moving on down the hill, it won't become underground water near the house.
There is another factor that cannot be affected by local surface drainage, and that is the large underground movement of water. And if there is a high water table, the best thing to do is forget about a basement.
Of course, no underground discovery, such as soil borings, is ever performed by home builders. At least, none that I have heard of. Boring may be required in zones with high earthquake activity, but I don't live in one of those.
An interesting little story. In 1967 I coerced some friends to help me build a retaining wall beside my Dad's driveway. Being in high school, I knew nothing about retaining wall design, hydrostatic pressure, or anything like that. So, my buddies and I proceeded to take some hand made brick from a house that was being dismantled down the street, and build the wall from those. There was no footing. The bottom of the brick wall was one brick course below grade. There was no french drain behind the wall, and there were no weep holes to relieve pressure behind the wall. This wall averaged about 36" high, and was about 35' long. That wall lasted until last year, when my Dad tore it down to widen the driveway again. Tells you a lot about engineering, huh.
By the way, thanks for the complements. Someone in another thread thinks I'm an idiot.
Ha! good story about the brick retaining wall, exactly!
Per moving water away-grading...i have no problem with homeowners 'trying' to divert water away, its just many people will not be able to accomplish diverting enough water away from their home and even when they try, many neighbors arent going to appreciate the excess water coming...ahem...their way,towards their home esp.from the side walls.Around SE Mich, i`ve talked to many homeowners who have tried and actually had their neighbor call the city and complain and have the city come out and lower-redo the grade cuz water was running onto-puddling on THEIR driveway/lawn etc, many cities have their own lil codes for how much one can actually raise the grade and/or divert water away & towards a neighbors property, ya know.
Then there are some who try `n divert it by several means-ways towards the backyard, and of course those neighbors in the rear get pizzed as well, plus many homeowners who at first as fairly happy with diverting water away from the house towards the back then complain on heavy rains `n spring thaws about the LAKE that forms-accumulates in yard & along fence and even can ruin/begin to rot the bottom of garages and-or begin to get water inside the garage, lolol. All that and many will still say something like...hey, now i only get a trickle of water on bsmt floor.Mold is still going to grow,some homes will still get radon gas entering through various outside openings, the pressure is still against the outside of the walls. And see, many wait way too long, they wait until a wall or 2+ have bowed or even buckled inward and are screwed even more by putting off what should `n could have been done years ago to prevent these kinda nighmares, for less money at that time.
If a homeowner has a crack or 2, Fix the dumb crack(s) correctly and be done with it! Many waste more time & thought and in some cases...money, trying to play the diverting game.
Another point is, selling the home. I see so many who heard on radio,from friend,from builder/Hm Insp etc,read in N`paper/other articles and on & on that raising the grade & xtending downspouts WILL solve 80-90% of all homeowners leaks/seepage/problems....C`mon folks! Its just Not true... So they sell the house under pre-conceived ideas-notions on their own & from others that the problem is solved, because...G haege said so? lololol...yah right. Thats why there are more `n more lawsuits about sellers leaving pre-existing problems for buyer/new owner.
Sure, some of it is their own fault, year after year quite a few will intentionally lie-mis-state on disclosure of leaks/seepage...trying to hide-conceal cracks & bowing walls etc by putting paneling up against basemnet walls. Or by cementing neatly over the cracks from the inside then painting the walls and hoping no one notices.
Why do sooo many people listen to others(some well intenioned Yes!, dont get me wrong) who have Never done bsmt waterproofing,let alone had to guarantee the work over a long period of time....why do they trust soo much in whomever.....Hm Insp`s,builders,city insp`s etc etc.....these people dont have 10,20,30 years of hands-on experience! Again..dont get me wrong,many of these folks are very good at what they do BUT they are NOT waterproofing contractors. They might have some kind of general knowledge but they dont know the Entire game plan c`mon. Sure, some have different kinds of construction background, but that isnt anywhere near what a good-honest hands on contractor has.
To answer my own question...a big part of why they listen is due to the idiots-knotheads in this trade ! Soo many scamming waterproofing companies out here, it has become pathetic imo. Many of these people incl`g some who have actually been in this business for 20+ years do "NOT" have the entire-knowledge because they didnt spend enough time...doing the actual work! Many would rather pay laborers $6-10 an hour and show up on job site with these inexperienced new laborers and kinda show-tell them what to do,give em a few tools etc, and leave the job site and go off to a restaurant & drink coffee the rest of day, know what i mean?
Some of these owners you will meet `n talk to on the estimate...and then the only other time ya see them is when the job is 'supposedly' done correctly and its time to get paid. Grrrrrrrrr!
Many, if not all, Salespersons employed by inside waterproofing companies will try `n bs You, the homeowner into more work than necessary. More work means more MONEY for them! Thats how they earn a living, they cant make it selling 1 small job after another.And i mean when a homeowner has 1,2 cracks...thats all they need to fix yet these salespeople WILL bs them into 2,3 and even all 4 walls.They have every incentive to do Exactly that....MONEY!
And hey, before someone starts complaining about my sentence-paragraph structure, i know its not up to snuff`n lacking and i`ll never be able to write Prez G. Dub next bs speech....but hey, its not specialty. Enough for now!
L.WP. & Chuck. Between the two of you there is a wealth of experience and knowledge. So it is resolved I should use washed pea or crushed gravel against my wood foundation. But I would still like advice on the following: What waterproofing covering/coating/membrane/combination should I use on the treated plywood? Thanks
at the bottom of page 1 on this thread-topic there are 3 links i posted per wood foundations and here are a couple more,wood foundations are Not My area of expertise,sorry! Poured,block,brick Yes....wood No.
Licensed Waterproofer.... Thank you for your time the other night, I wholeheartedly agreed with you on the other companies calling it "Water Proofing" when they are doing nothing to stop the water intrusion, just diverting it after it enters.
We will be raising the house about 3 feet off of the block foundation and then dig around two sides of the house that are below ground, jack the 2 walls back straight, fill any cracks and then use Rebar down the inside of the block and fill with concrete...We will be building a 2x8 knee wall, 18" high so we can end up with some ceiling height in the basement that is only 7' now.
I agree with the heavy roofing tar and visqueen but this house only has two walls below grade and the grade slopes to slab level. It is one of these houses that is one story on the front and two stories in the back.
My question is, how do I cover the tar and plastic that will be left above ground for aesthetics ? Need it or not, I am thinking of tarring the exposed sides also just for the sake of stopping water intrusion from rain but again, need a way to cover this.
Your help, ideas or thoughts would be appreciated...
Should think about footing drains and dimple mat if it is an option....Not getting against the block is better then having the water finding a place to excape which usually is into the house. Great basic book is Taunton's Foundations (pro's by Pro's)
I didn't read all the threads above so if Im off subject sorry.
yw! we tar-backfill and are responsible from....ground level Down. Anything above ground should be tuckpointed/caulked....or maybe what your lookin` for....parged/cemented. A good mason could parge the above ground blocks and make it look quite neat,least better than having the..'tar look'. Or maybe some kinda 'skirt' to cover the tar--parging or face-brick/stone that could go over the tar/cement above ground. If for some reason you DO tar above ground do Not use the visqueen, not needed and will not stay in place because there will be nothing up against it,like below ground(peastone). Sorry, not my specialty there. Call anytime,leave message if not hm.
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
We will be digging down past the footer and backfilling with crushed granite. The granite is probably a little cheaper here as it comes right from the mountains.
I guess I still had that thought of putting 2" insul board up over the tar but will probably stud up the inside walls and insulate and outside, put up some California Driftstone on what is left exposed...still a little tossed there...
I think I told you on the phone that this house is stuck in Probate.. Heard from the Attorney last night and apparently the Judge said he has never seen such a cluster where there was no reason. We will hopefully have this house closed next week so I can get this basement part done before the weather sets in...
Like we have it so bad here in TN compared to MI...LOL
This message has been edited. Last edited by: OilDoc,
First lets define the true & real meaning of Hydrostatic `n lateral pressures AND what can happen to your Bsmt walls http://yodergroup.com/concrete.asp 6th paragraph...( i disagree on the thickness of tar they use,imo should apply a Thick tar,will last much longer).
self serving wording from inside co.`s, look at Q`n A 3,7,9,20 q3..they make true statement of Hyd.pressure then turn it around shtt, the ONLY way to relieve/lessen hydrostatic pressure is get rid of the clay/soil/tree roots etc on the Outside of the walls `n backfill with gravel/peastone,sheesh! Alllowing water to come in through bottom of crack or through holes in block is.....allowing water to Come IN! it is water diverting, not waterproofing and should in no way be lumped/advertised as such. No wonder homeowners are so confused.
pretty much same as nova Q 7 & 9. Outside excavation..outside walls sealed? No & No! They state "this was done when the home was built, it didnt work then & it wont work now." lolol, you knotheads! Thats because almost all builders ONLY 'damproof' Not Waterproof! And they dont backfill with all peastone/gravel. Read http://www.yodergroup.com/concrete.asp again plz! all of 6th and 7th paragraphs
Q..crack in wall,what to do? A.."You have 2 options." (no mention to fix from outside of course!)...."first is polyurethane injection...BUT we have found over time the urethane SHRINKS & the crack leaks again." They go on to state they have a New-breakthrough crack repair method which is...patent pending. says this new Flexispan method"eliminates messy,unreliable epoxy & urethane injections." And, its permanent `n works every time. Hmm, well...if they havent actually used/tried it over a long period on time they how can they make such a claim? C`mon...why? because their-own testing says it works?
They state they just celebrated their 10th year in business http://www.suredrybasements.com/sureDryNews.html well, happy B`day folks. Then say "We have been filling cracks with various methods for many years. In fact, we were Pioneers in applying polyurethane injections to residential poured concrete foundation cracks." http://www.suredrybasements.com/sureDryCrackRepair.html 2nd Paragraph ..and go on to say "Injecting sealant materials into wall cracks was a big breakthrough at the time. YET, we habe had to Watch as...Continued Structural Movement and Further concrete shrinkage have, re-opened Cracks to leaks!"
"Injection alone cannot provide a lasting solution as cracks get larger and soil expansion & contraction cause the foundation to shift and settle."
this guy seems quite knowledgable with his hands on experience in plumbing `n some building-concrete etc `n also seems much more honest than many but,i disagree with Tim on about 50% of his bsmt waterproofing thoughts-ideas cuz its Not his 'specialty area' not his real hands on 'past experience'.
He knows about the importance of backfilling techniques,soils,but tell the folks to backfill with all gravel/peastone like D Yoders states-knows http://yodergroup.com/concrete.asp 6th & 7th paragraphs.
He knows that damproofing is basically Nothing, but use a Thick tar please! lol, and as redundant as i have to be, backfill will all peastone/gravel! He knows & states 1st Parag."Tim,my builder DID waterproof my foundation"..well believe it or not in MANY cases that is NOT true.Yes your builder already sprayed a black liquid on your foundation,but the Fact is this product may just be damproofing.
He no doubt correctly says "There is a Significant difference between damproofing & waterproofing"( and yes...backfilling).
5th P.."To permanently stop water & water vapor from entering your foundation walls you need to...Waterproof them!"
"Damproofing is an inexpensive way to meet the lowest minimum standard of the building codes." This is 1 of my bigger complaints...just because there is a 'code' in NO way means it is remotely close to being what is best for the home/homeowner.
Grrrrr, homeowner says water is pouring into basement through Cracks, what to do?
Instead of answering to fix the....cracks, and waterproof `n backfill correctly from the outside....he doesnt even mention this...why??
He states to use hydraulic cement but Tim, apply it on the 'Outside' for god sakes.
Injections....? See last post. I mean try whatever ya like, grading,french drains,downspout extensions,mudjacking slabs,filling low spots...lolol-sigh-what is 'Best' is, yup...Outside. He makes this point in other articles.
Why say the following in paragraph 10 under 'installation specifics'
Finally i see one place he says to backfill with gravel to within 18" of grade..hurray! BUT then says "it will be virtually impossible to dig up and add gravel in the future when your basement is leaking." Well crap, this is what i `n others have been doing for Decades! Its called...Basement Waterproofing my good man, and bsmt waterproofing the 'right' way.
Paragraph 3...he is on the money. Water can-will go down `n....sideways. When it moves through soils down & sideways it moves....under driveways-patios,underneath already raised grades,underneath slabs that have been mudjacked,underneath extended downspouts extensions...and back towards and into the wall through any cracks/openings. Got Milk?
Caulking,tuckpointing,waterproofing cracks & hauling away wet/moist soils against bsmt walls & backfilling w/peastone helps-eliminates entryways. How will Any inside method stop-prevent water, mold,radon,hydrostatic-lateral pressure and insects from entering your home? it can`t! when done correctly it will keep water off your bsmt floor, thats it. If thats what homeowners want for the same price or more, by all means call bdry or any other inside company who will be more than happy to help you keep water off your floor, you`ve been redundantly informed.
through all the years of hand digging to footings we 'rarely'(hairline tree roots) see any problem with the clay tiles, and they`ve been there in underground soils/conditions for decades, not to mention the tons of weight atop it.
and its the weight 'plus' the compaction-settling process of whatever soils are use
"Even more important to keeping a basement dry is the foundation backfill process. We firmly believe a foundation should be backfilled with washed gravel(peastone),Not dirt,from the basement floor level all the way up to within 2-3" of the finished ground level outside the home.This type of drainage prevents trapped water & saturated soil next to the foundation from building up horizontal hydrostatic pressure against the wall. This pressure will crack walls, cause leaks and in worse cases collapse the wall inward.Despite these FACTS,most local building codes require only 18" of coverage from the bottom up. The additional cost for full height backfill is approx. $3,000. For this reason, most builders provide only the minimum coverage required by codes."
, nothing to do about why & how a part of, or entire wall+ leaks. The reaon(s) they leak-seep is what i`ve talked about in earlier posts....sorry! Lolol, believe what ya like but no one on this planet will ever convince me or actually'show' me `n my guys how this is possible, its just a bunch of hot-air redundantly being told,printed etc. Like i said, i will replace any bad outside tile,it wont hurt and hey, i`m right there on top of it...no problem, plus it keeps the city inspectors who think that d tiles is the ONLY reason why basements leak, off my azz. 
, thats what the city-the homeowner is paying you to do! See, thats too much to ask of them and besides, they dont wanna get dirty.
! Soo many scamming waterproofing companies out here, it has become pathetic imo. Many of these people incl`g some who have actually been in this business for 20+ years do "NOT" have the entire-knowledge because they didnt spend enough time...doing the actual work! Many would rather pay laborers $6-10 an hour and show up on job site with these inexperienced new laborers and kinda show-tell them what to do,give em a few tools etc, and leave the job site and go off to a restaurant & drink coffee the rest of day, know what i mean? 
In your Dreams!
So many bogus/self serving claims