Thanks licensedwaterproofer for backing up what I was thinking. I have a small amount of seepage occuring in one front corner of my basement after heavy rains where the slab has created a small crack where it meets the basement wall and water can get in right at the floor line. I had one of the companies come out who wanted to jackhammer out the floor and install the diversion system to a pump well. This didn't make a lot of sense to me as there would never be enough water to even run a pump. I thought that an exterior solution was probably a much better idea and it should be fairly easy to dig down to the bottom of foundation at this point as the ground slopes steeply from the house at the corner that is the issue.
Anyway, now that that is said, can anyone give me any pointers on how to find a qualified contractor who could perform a good, reasonably priced fix from the outside in the Frederick County, Maryland area? I keep finding the "interior, break up the floor" types and I don't want to go that way.
no prob but may i ask,is it a block,poured or brick bsmt wall? do you have a crack in the bsmt-floor NEAR the wall? do you SEE water enter up--through a floor crack OR do you SEE water enter right at the isolation/cold joint which is where the wall & floor meet? makes a difference what your answer is. you can call me if you like, i HATE to see-hear about people getting screwed, you want to be 'sure' what the problem is BEFORE you spend 1 cent.
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
Gee, thanks for the quick reply. It is a poured foundation and the leak is right at the cold joint. I think what happened is that when a carpenter who was helping with some framing while finishing my basement drove some concrete nails in to anchor the bottom plate, they caused the slab to separate from the poured wall. I don't blame them, I guess they didn't know any better and it could have happened anyway. There is a small crack in the slab a couple of feet out from the corner, but I don't have any water at the crack, only at the cold joint and it is a very small amount of seepage. It only happens with a fair amount of rain, or if I put a hose right against the foundation and let it run for a few minutes. I do not have water come up through any crack in the floor and I only get a small bit of pooling right in the corner. Part of me was tempted just to pack the floor-wall seam along the entire corner with hydraulic cement, but I also realize that that is probably a risky long term fix. Thanks very much for your help.
Firstly, THANK YOU for taking the time to type all that information to help us. I am an aspiring homebuilder... the knowledge you provided and all the links you provided were very informative.
Pretty much what I have got from this is:
1)when building foundations, backfill with sand/gravel/peastone. 2)Vertical reinforcing bars = good 3)If there is a crack, fill it from the outside!! (90 percent of the time, and hand dig) once sealed, put tar over it.
Am I on the right track? Is there anything else of importance I need to take note of?
Again, thanks for taking the time to inform us...Most of the time inexperieced folk like myself can learn the most from more experienced people like yourself.
Posts: 7 | Location: Atlanta, GA | Registered: 23 October 2005
no problem. hey, 1 more thing...your basement is finished so ya cannot see the walls right???
and you said you have run a hose/water on the outside & within a few minutes you get water on floor so there IS either a crack, rod hole(s), a pin hole in a seam,an imperfection at the cold joint, opening along brick ledge and/or an opening around where a gas--sprinkler line enters the wall behind drywall-paneling.
important thing about all that is, IF the 'only' problem is a rod hole(s) then those can be plugged/packed from the Inside, you can fix those yourself for very little! like i said you want to be sure what Exactly the problem(s) is so IF you cannot see the wall in that corner i`d recommend taking some panelng/drywall down to SEE whats up, know what i mean?
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
yeah....pretty much. it`s just that there are soo many B waterproofing companies who will BS people into spending $thousands$ when its not necessary AND many are selling/pushing a method that doesnt actually stop water from entering,doesnt stop/prevent Mold-Radon gas-Termites & other insects--hydrostatic pressure.
....for instance 'some' hm inspectors who check out a house you may sell/buy & tell you that there is a moisture/leakage problem in basement and go on `n tell you that 80-90% of the time you can easily fix the leak by extending downspouts,raising grade etc, i wish it were that simple & true.
The reason that house has a leak is like i have explained in earlier posts,Not because your dog knocked off the downspout extension in the backyard, know what i mean? Again i`ll say there is nothing wrong with raising grade/ longer d`spouts but thats NOT why a bsmt leaks!
And so when people are given the wrong info about why there is a leak and how to fix it, they are also not going to stop-prevent a mold problem, all the true-articles about mold tell all of us to 'find and STOP the water from entering'. well, an Inside method does NOT stop water from entering.....extending downspouts/raising grade is NOT stopping-fixing the crack & other outside openings.
These direct outside openings also allow higher Radon gas levels, so anyone telling you to divert a little more water away from foundation by different means either doesnt give a shtt or doesnt understand why all outside openings need to be fixed correctly, not only to stop-prevent mold but also to help lessen/stop radon gas.
Termites and other insects also enter our homes through these Outside openings, so any inside method wont help here either. And again...neither will raising grade-extending downspouts etc.
And lets not forget about Hydrostatic-lateral pressure which is on the....Outside of our basement walls. More homeowners than many think have cracks,bowing etc Behind their drywall due to these soil pressures and roots from trees can also help push-crack a wall. And so again....someone recommending to a buyer to raise the grade/extend D`spouts etc and that will 80-90% of the time FIX a seepage problem isnt eyeballing the entire picture.
fact is, someone thinking about buying a home with a finished basement will have No Idea what shape the foundation walls are in....right? Isnt that a little scary to think about, talking about the foundation here.
So by having the REAL info on whats Best to Stop/Prevent/Lessen hydrostatic pressure, water entry,mold,radon gas,termites & other insects homeowners wont be soo easily b`shtted by these inside-only companies.
One more time,lol. An Inside drain tile method or dewatering method does NOT Stop water from entering.....so it also does NOT stop/prevent mold,radon gas,insects `n hydrostatic-lateral pressure. An Outside method done & backfilled correctly DOES! gl!
One more thing to think about in regards to RADON and having Any inside drain tile or dewatering method done in Your home....
First, inside methods do Not seal/fix any cracks in basement walls and other direct openings that are on the outside of the house which allow Radon to enter, gotta go Outside to accomplish this!
Secondly, these inside methods if anything....in fact allow more Openings on the inside of your basement for the very real & distinct possibility for Higher Radon Levels to Exist!
This is 1 of many please read.. http://www.nova-inc.com/q&a.htm Q & A 20..."seal all Cracks EXCEPT lower 3 inches of wall or cracks. Never seal the joint where the wall and the floor meet!"
Oh really, thats interesting..how does RADON enter homes `n buildings? http://www.aerias.org/DesktopModules/ArticleDetail.aspx?articleId=173 -Sources of Radon- "Radon gas enters residences & buildings through dirt floors, Cracks in walls and floors, floor drains & sump pumps etc"
"the concrete walls & floors help slow down the movement of Radon from the soil into the building. However, cracks in the floor, wall slab joints and the drainage system allows radon to enter a building."
"cracks in solid floors, construction joints, cracks in walls,gaps in suspended floors, gaps around service pipes, cavities inside walls,water supply"
And when many of these inside companies do their method for block walls, they drill holes in the bottom courses of the block wall which creates More openings for radon to enter!
Need i go over the other important facts `n issues inside methods dont fix/address? They dont stop water from entering through outside openings so an inside method will not stop/prevent mold, will not help stop termites & other insects from entering through cracks etc. And 'Real' hydrostatic-lateral pressure that is against the Outside of Bsmt walls which causes walls to crack,bow `n even buckle inward, no way any inside drain tile-dewatering method takes tons of soil pressure off the outside of walls. Only an outside method done & backfilled correctly can help. http://www.yodergroup.com/concrete.asp 6th & 7th para`s http://www.bobvila.com/ArticleLibrary/Task/Inspecting/FoundationFailure.htmlhttp://www.riverwatchonline.org/news/winnipeg_press/07_09_05.html
no problem. hey, 1 more thing...your basement is finished so ya cannot see the walls right???
and you said you have run a hose/water on the outside & within a few minutes you get water on floor so there IS either a crack, rod hole(s), a pin hole in a seam,an imperfection at the cold joint, opening along brick ledge and/or an opening around where a gas--sprinkler line enters the wall behind drywall-paneling.
important thing about all that is, IF the 'only' problem is a rod hole(s) then those can be plugged/packed from the Inside, you can fix those yourself for very little! like i said you want to be sure what Exactly the problem(s) is so IF you cannot see the wall in that corner i`d recommend taking some panelng/drywall down to SEE whats up, know what i mean?
Licensedwaterproofer - Sorry, small misunderstanding. I am in the process of finishing the basement. I have complete access to the basement walls still so I can see exactly what is happening. All I have in the way is studs framing the wall. I am virtually certain that the problem is at the cold joint. I get water seeping right where the floor meets the wall and then it pools a small amount right in the corner. The water does not come from above or up through the floor. I didn't notice this problem (though I admit, it could have been there) before the concrete nails for the bottom plate on the framed walls were driven into the slab. Like I said, I think the slab separated ever so slightly from the wall at the cold joint and is allowing some water in. Does this need to be fixed by exposing the joint from the outside? It's probably about 6 feet down, though the ground slopes quickly away on the side of the house just around the corner from where the problem is just a few feet in from that corner on the front of the house (did that make sense?). You suggested previously maybe I should give you a call. That is an incredibly generous offer that I should probably take you up on. Could you PM me contact info and when would be good to talk? Thanks so much.
Originally posted by LicensedWaterproofer: chi, well i dont know or see how to PM you, so can ya help with that lol. or can i email you w/my number, i have time to discuss now if you like.
Thanks again for the conversation. You've been a tremendous help and I really appreciate it. I'll post back on the outcome!
This message has been edited. Last edited by: chiguy,
I have read most of the thread, and I mostly agree with you. I have no experience with waterproofing. I am but a recent home owner with a small water problem in my (finished) basement looking for a solution. I am however, a mechanical design engineer. And while not experienced in waterproofing, I have a good understanding of the physics governing my problem.
The truth is, all companies offer a product based on some truth. The issue is most use a sliver of truth to "convince" people that their product is THE solution, when often they are at best a bad fix.
I agree that the best way to waterproof a basement is sealing the outside. If anything, it just makes the most common sense. However, I've read Sanitred's website and must admit I see little wrong with their product other than them saying sealing from the outside doesn't work.
But for about $1K, their product seems be able to solve my problem. IF it is true, and their product effectively prvides a layer of liquid rubber that permeates through the pores in the concrete, how can you say that doesn't work? True, water will maybe still seep on the very outside of the concrete, but if in the end, on the INSIDE of my basement, I get no water, then what's not to like?
If they were charging me as much, or only a little bit less than exterior sealing, I would bark. But at such a small cost (perhaps only a few hundred dollars of product that I can apply myself) why is it so wrong?
Truth be told, I do not know where the water is coming in from in my basement. I will gut my current basement next spring and I will see where the problem is (doing other remodeling now). I see small puddles of water only in a 10-foot section along the front wall of the house so it seems fairly localized and very mild. I just want to redo the basement and not have to worry about water probelms ever again on the new finished basement.
I found you while "Google-ing" information about addressing cracks and water in basements and thank you for the wealth of information you've shared.
We're in SE Michigan and have an issue with a 6'-8' crack in our basement wall. We obviously want to deal with this before winter.
According to what I'm reading, this is something that will require some level of exterior work - HOPEFULLY nothing too involved or scary.
I see that you too are in SE Michigan. Is there some way I can contact you to come out and take a look at our problem? I'm new to this whole blogging thing.
hi ya...i`m sure your a very smart person `n well intentioned but `ill never be able to get across to most folks what its taken me a very long time to learn through hands on experience-time. I post because i have seen too many homeowners for nearly 3 decades get screwed, Tons of their hard earned money spent on all kinds of supposed 'wonder sealers' & 'super fixes' and yes bs`d into inside methods They were Told by the inside companies would Stop the water from entering,stop mold,stop radon,stop insects and releive hydrostatic-lateral pressure...and its just Not true and they had to find out the hard way and....over time!
This post could go on forever, lol..as others of mine seem to have, for Sanitred to make such a Knothead claim and they make other bs claims by the way, why would anyone trust them or what they say and are trying to sell you in the first place?
If you have used their product or any other and are happy with it then i`m happy for you and wish you and your basement well! I`d just add that while you think it may be keeping water out/fixing your problem now then check back with me in 1,5,20 years and let me know then if your still happy and dry, see what i mean? I`m here to try ta help anyone where/if i can, if you like you can call me about your problem/leak, its.....free.
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
NP, Here to help...email me if you like at phoepep@comcast.net from there i`ll give ya number, thanks
and so you know, on every estimate i do indeed bring my State waterproofing license,insurance,references-galore with ph numbers and as always its a free/written/honest estimate....`n i never ask/take a deposit. let me know.
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
The answer to the question about inside or outside basement waterproofing is pretty straightforward, once you think about it.
Think about the earth and water standing outside your basement wall, pressing with all their might against that wall. The wall, in resisting that pressure, tends to bow inward, placing the outside surface of the wall in compression and the inside surface in tension.
Now, think about a membrane of waterproofing on the outside of that wall. The pressure from the outside is trying to push the waterproofing through the wall. Because the pores in the wall are smaller than the molecules of the waterproofing, there is no way the waterproofing can penetrate. Even in the case of a crack in the wall, the outside surface compression tends to minimize the crack, and the waterproofing membrane moves in to fill it.
For water proofing on the inside surface, the integrity of the membrane is already compromised because the surface of the interior wall surface is in tension. Tension, as we all know, moves the molecules of the wall surface and waterproofing further apart, inviting water to pass through. At the same time, your concrete basement wall now has all it pores filled with water. Portions of the wall that are exposed to outside low temperatures would likely have water freezing in them. The expansive, freezing water causes spalling of the concrete, destroying the structural integrity of the wall, while allowing both air and water to contact the steel reinforcement. And we all know what air and water do to steel.
Another way of thinking of this is to compare the waterproofing to a door. In the case of outside waterproofing, think of an outswinging door. The outswinging door closes against a door stop on at least 3 of the 4 door edges. If you try to push the door in, you will find it nearly impossible with mere human strength, at least for a structurally sound door and frame. On the other hand, imagine an inswinging door, where the pushing from the outside is resisted by three hinges on one side and one latchbolt on the other. Most likely, any adult could kick that door in because it does not have the strength required to resist the pressure. The same is true for waterproofing.
or another example, if your roof was leaking would you A) stay inside and go up to attic or part of ceiling where water was dripping in and try to patch it or try to divert the water into a bucket B) go outside get a ladder and go up on roof, find the problem/opening(s), like the valley of roof and patch it (or get new roof)? Point is inside or outside...got milk?
Sure, you could choose 'A 'and patch or try to divert the water but in the meantime whats going to happen to the wood, whats going to begin growing because water is still allowed to enter, and our lil insects friends will continue to find their way into home...termites for example will find their way into a structure through an opening as small as 1/32 of an inch http://www.mipca.org/Termites.htm scroll to 'How termites enter homes'
We always hear-read to do things right the first time, well same applies to B waterproofing. For those who are having a new home built then, waterproof it..NOT damproof, AND backfill it w/peastone/gravel from the start, dont get cheap its your foundation for god sake. again plz read `n think about what Others 'know' and tell ya, http://www.yodergroup.com/concrete.asp 6th & 7th paragraphs http://www.bobvila.com/ArticleLibrary/Task/Inspecting/FoundationFailure.html its not just my expeienced opinion, others are trying to help you too, but some people unfortunately get bs`d by the self interest peeps and companies, who either dont care and/or dont Really know & understand.
ok, i have a lil more time so i`ll make a few points about Sanitred and their claims, and hey....make whatever claims they want, they have their opinion `n views just like the rest of the world. And this is a very looong-Ramblin` Post so you`ve been warned!!
Thing is, i would hope & like to think that people who makes certain claims to the Public about their products would back them up 100%, not get all wishy washy and use tricky wording to seduce the public ta buy it. And where the heck is the Gv`ment who is supposedly looking out for the publics interest? Yeah exactly, same old shtt, they say 1 thing and doing something different. P Floyd wrote "Mother should i run for President? Mother should i trust the government?"
Back to Sanitred who claims "Its Impossible to waterproof a basement from the outside". If this were true then how is it myself `n few others have existed in this business for decades with No complaints,zero. Go ahead `n make the claim but back it up Sanitred! For anyone to state this proves they have very lil or no experience & understanding of Bsmt waterproofing, its all self interest, all a big game to seduce you into buying their product. Have they actually done ANY basement waterproofing jobs? and guaranteed these jobs over long period of time? If they are soo knowledgable then why arent they out here doing the work and making More money? Cuz they choose the easy road,non labor route, which is fine i guess, as long as they can bs enough people to buy the products then they wont have to work their butts off digging holes etc.
They claim the"Sanitred system seals out ALL Exterior ground water from the inside Permanently!" I say..thats a Big bllchtt story, for example-- let`s say a homeowner has a vertical crack in a block wall and they apply this sealant on the inside of wall. Now let me happily come over and run a hose (recreate rain) at ground level and lets just see if their product Really 'Seals out All exterior ground water'...heheheheee
where do they state that whoever uses their product(s) will not have 1 drop of water entering the basement? where does it state that if the homeowner continues to have any water entering the basement they will quickly refund the money for product? Does it state there will be No further Mold growth on bsmt walls after using the product? Does it state the use of their products will relieve hydrostatic-lateral pressur off the outside of basement walls? and on `n on...no, for some reason....i dont see this anywhere in the actual Warranty.
But i do see where they have quite a few...outs--exclusions for themselves...meaning if the product isnt applied correctly etc your on yer own.
I`m having a hard time finding anything remotely close where they say to YOU, use our products and they guarantee you will not have any water entering your wall/floor where their product is applied and if so they`ll prompty refund yer cash...do you?
So what exactly IS this 'limited' lifetime warranty...know what i mean.
You gotta remember this si what They want You to believe to be TRUE, But it isnt, so much crap but 1 more note,plz scroll more than halfway down to below 'Standard installation method', past 1,2,3.....2nd and 3rd paragraphs "The Exterior concrete foundation walls DO NOT need to be protected from water, it is only the interior of the basement that needs to be sealed." Now this is stunning being compltetly full of shtt, what R they smoking?
"Most exterior sealing methods are of little value in preventing water from entering the basement as you can see by studying the basement cut-away sketches." HHAhahahahaa, what da? By studying 'their' bs sketches, C`mon peeps. Look, any who want to buy their products then God bless but dont cry when they fail. Dont bitch `n moan if you use this stuff thinking you`ve solved the problem and sell your house & state on disclosure that problem area was fixed and then get sued by new owner, i see this all the time! I`d happily welcome any public debate to for once & forever clear all this bs up for the publics benefit, i`m sooooo tired of this crap, Kept my mouth shut for a long time.
Dont cha think i also could so easily go along with this kind stuff, do inside methods or sell these supposed superior products and make a ton More money just like they do? Sure baby, easy but i`m not wired that way and couldnt sleep w/ clear conscience. shtt my body would certainly be in alot better shape too, ya think i WANT to hand-dig these holes and put my `n my guys azz through this risky job week after week? lolol, hardly. Some of my friends think i`m 'Crazy' for Not going along with the bs and making tons more $.
Man, as Led Zeppelin wrote, can i 'Ramble on' or what? Or as my comedian idol G Carlin says "people who should be repeatedly hit in the head with a piece of heavy mining equipment...people who pay for inexpensive items w/ a credit card. Hey, Raisinettes is Not a major purchase! No one should be paying 18% interest on a bag of cheese doodles or Tic Tac`s and yer holdin` up the line too!! Next guy ahead of me in-line paying for Newsweek w/ a credit card is getting stabbed right in the eyes." or as George says "How come when its a human its an abortion and when its a Chicken its an omelette?"
My guarantee states "we will service the seepage of ANY water through subsoil masonry walls where waterproofed for a period of 20 years from completion date without ANY additional costs to homeowner."
Common sense....i or any honest contractor can only guarantee a wall or part of wall where we actually work. When a homeowner has 1 wall that leaks pretty much along the entire length of wall and nowhere else, then i`m not gonna bs them into anymore than needed. At the same time i am certainly not going to guarantee the other walls where i havent done any waterproofing, if they had a problem on other walls at that point in time they`d have noticed seepage along other walls!
And like i`ve tried to explain in many time consuming posts, there are 'other' ways water can enter our homes. i state and explain that on all estimates to homeowners and in writing. Water can get into your basement from 'above' ground openings including open mortar joints,cracked-loose bricks,openings in & around basement windows and doors, where a central a/c hose enters the house,flashings etc.
And the least likely problem, least around here is that when there is NO water coming from wall/coming from cold joint-isolation joint which is where the wall & floor meet but water is ONLY coming up through bsmt floor crack(s), then this is an entirely different problem which requires a different solution. They will first need an honest/experienced plumber to try & snake through the 'Strom Drain' back under the floor when possible to 'free' the debris-blockage under the floor.
If that doesnt work then they will need a sump pump(S) to....control the water level under the bsmt floor before it can rise up through a crack in the floor on longer/heavier rains. Cant help that some builders dont give 2 craps where they build some of these homes, like on top of a spring/high water table area. And of course only damproofing with very poor backfilling practices and on & on. Sheesh, Enough already! 'sorry', as fcf pointed out i misread 1 lousy line.....opps, my point remains the exact same.
yeah....pretty much. it`s just that there are soo many B waterproofing companies who will BS people into spending $thousands$ when its not necessary AND many are selling/pushing a method that doesnt actually stop water from entering,doesnt stop/prevent Mold-Radon gas-Termites & other insects--hydrostatic pressure.