45 degrees plus 6 feet. Soil is siltly with a high clay content so I will chase the large machine away if it gets too close.
I will hand dig by the house once my mate heals. And we will angle the soil to be sure not to bury ourselves! Thanks guys! you and the gang online are the BEST!!!!
P.S. I wasn't joking about the egg timer. A five minute shower can run too long if I have been doing lots of yard work. The chime snaps me out of my steam cloud. Yes boys, I need to install a fan. Adding it to the list...
Posts: 66 | Location: Slab House in Southern NH | Registered: 21 November 2006
Will ANY inside drain tile/baseboard system w/sump stop/prevent efflorescence on your basement wall? Uh, nope. It should keep water off your bsmt floor, thats it.
...."To stop efflorescence you must stop all-water from entering masony surfaces"
Does an inside system stop all water from entering through parged/damproofed walls that were backfilled in most cases with same soil excavated? Nope, not today not tomorrow,never.Same goes for efflorescence that could be on bsmt wall due to above-grade problems/bricks/ledges etc getting soaked.
Oooooooh babe, when i pick up the phone (surprise surprise surprise) there`s still nobody home. P Floyd.
'the next critical concern is to prevent any water from penetrating into the masonry wall where it could cause efflorescence to occur'
Mold on basement wall
yeah yeah, a few possibilities but if you scroll down and look at the first-2 pics, at least part of the mold problem is due to water entering through cracks in block wall and NO inside system will stop/prevent further water from entering, gotta go outside `n waterproof that part of wall.
Those who have finsihed basements may just see some water on bsmt floor, can`t see bsmt wall and so, some get talked into an inside system which won`t prevent water from entering these cracks, wont prevent mold from growing on walls behind drywall.
.."results from this survey revealed that moisture problems were not-usually related to the interior relative humidity but rather to localized issues such as local geomorphology,downspout location,window well flooding,cracks or leaks in the foundation,plumbing problems and grading problems"
water entering through a window/window well means, there are OPENING(s) around the window and/or under it, like openings or gaps in/under the sill so...seal/repair/replace them. Some will tell ya to get better drainage inside-the-well, chtt, better off finding/sealing the problems,the openings.
.."With these findings in mind, greater attention must be paid to foundation dampproofing (ya mean WATERPROOFING) grading problems,adequate on lot drainage systems and areas of moisture INGRESS" ingress = a means or place of entering,entrway
-Preventing mold growth "The moisture problem must be FIXED to prevent future mold growth......the only way to prevent mold growth is to keep things DRY"
How will any company keep a wall dry if they don`t go outside and stop the water from entering in first place.Better believe block walls will get wet/damp if they are not waterproofed.
What about damp/rotted baseboard,furring strips,lower parts of paneling etc? What likes damp/moist/wet basement conditions and wood to munch on?
...Preservation professionals increasingly recommend a stragedy called integrated pest management..this approach relies primarily on non chemical means such as controlling climate,food sources,and Building ENTRY Points.
-Routes of Entry Inadequately selaed windows and doors.....cracks and crevices in walls or foundations or openings around pipes can also be an entry route. Insects can squeeze through extremely small openings.
-Water sources Many insects are attracted to DAMP areas...
Not saying waterproofing/sealing cracks in bsmt walls and above grade openings/tuckpointing etc will do the trick but it`ll certainly stop many insects & water/moisture from entering those openings, inside systems won`t.
Facts are, many who want to sell you an inside system sell you a ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL water diverting system, yeah, they like to 'TRY' and turn that around on outside method/contractors but thats complete nonsense and facts just within this thread blows away many of their expert-claims...rather, self proclaimed experts.They don`t DEFINE where/how water is FIRST entering the basement, nah, don`t seem to give 2 craps about that.
Inside systems do not relieve/lessen outside soil pressure & roots which cause cracks in bsmt walls, leaks,bowed walls or deterioration of blocks.They don`t help stop/prevent mold and efflorescence due to cracks and other outside openings which allow water/moisture in. Don`t help stop radon from entering same cracks and, if anything...allow more openings in basement for radon to enter. Gaps/spaces left open along cold joint, some leave bottom 4-6 inches of cracks in poured walls open.
...'Before appropriate measures can be taken, it is IMPORTANT to IDENTIFY the causes...."
say THIS again too ... SOME homeowners who, all of a sudden, get water on bsmt floor on Heavy-long downpour will "ONLY" need to EITHER, have Exp`d-honest plumber like John Scalzo here in s.e.Mich, SNAKE your Storm-Trap/clean out or, if you have a sump pump, SNAKE the tile-in-the-pit Back UNDER the floor towards back! You may simply have a BLOCKAGE under floor. If you rather spend $5,000-$17,000 for an inside system and not-FIRST try `n SNAKE which will most likely cost $125-175, then thats your choice/house,money down the tubes, quite possibly.
P Floyd.. i`ve got a lil black book with my poems in, got a bag with a toothbrush and a comb when i`m a good dog they sometimes throw me a bone
since hydrostatic pressure on the outside of a wall is when 'the soil becomes saturated and expands' then, its the weight/force of the saturated-soil that is the pressure and drainage board could not possibly 'relieve' this force.
Having gravel/sand against the outside of basement wall can relieve-lessen hydrostatic pressure against a wall because it takes the place of otherwise-expanding-saturated soil, gravel `n sand impose the smallest loads,even when wet,because friction between the particles keeps the soil somewhat stable and don`t hold water agst the bsmt wall and expand like silts or clays. Clays when saturated can apply 3 times the 'pressure'...see... Some Soil Types Are Better Than Others
Excellent drainage agst a basement wall, from ground level down and less-pressure equals backfilling w/gravel, sand if ya have to.
When they say 'drainage board relieves hydrostatic pressure...Here`s how-water forms droplets inside the small tunnels in drainage board and then seeps downward through the board instead of moving toward foundation wall'...well, so too does applying a thick waterproofing asphalt/tar and then visqueen.
Its what one applies to outside of walls and how thick that`ll keep water from penetrating plus the gravel backfill agst walls that allows water/rain to seep downward instead of moving toward the foundation walls.
Not sayin` its a crime to use drainage board, lol,but rather the drainage board is NOT what really relieves hydrostatic pressure. Now if they are sayin` it`ll help keep water away/off wall, hey no problem...again, so too will applying a THICK waterproofing asphalt `n visqueen.Got that? Don`t need drainage board imo. Ok, those who sell/make it go ahead, fire away
Back to bob vila link, 1st & 2nd para...
"Often however, the biggest load on the foundation is NOT the weight of the house, but the PRESSURE-of-the-SOIL around the foundation. Called the Lateral-Load, it is the amount-of-pressure EXERTED on the BASEMENT WALLS..."
"Coarse-grained,well-drained soils like sand and gravel apply the 'least-lateral load' while fine silts and clays, especially-if-saturated, apply MORE load...the deeper the basement, the greater the pressure"
Then see -COMPACTION...very important as well
"When a foundation is first built, good construction-practice dictates that the builder will compact the soil as it is backfilled around a new foundation wall.This 'helps' prevent the soil nearest the house from settling over time. The soil should be placed in LAYERS, and compacted with machinery"
Well, there most-likely will STILL be some SETTLING in coming months...compacting the soil HELPS prevent,it doesn`t 'alone' prevent further/future settling. THAT will come in TIME and with rains. And, careful when operating heavy equipment-machinery near/next to basement walls, as they talk about in LAST PARA... -Careful on Construction Site
"The PROBLEM is that the PRESSURE from the compacting-process gets TRANSMITTED through-the-soil to the WALL."
"After compaction, SOIL is under compression like a spring and CONTINUES to PUSH-against-the-foundation......in practice,sands and gravels densify or compact more readily than silts of clays, creating LESS of this springlike FORCE-- one more GOOD REASON to use them for....BACKFILLING!
Well, if we know all this chtt then....whats the problem? Cost? lol Whats more costly...spending several thousand now, when house is built and WATERPROOFING the walls AND Backfilling with most-all gravel OR, quite possibly spending ten thousand plus to waterproof and possibly MORE to rebuild/brace a wall. And STOP planting TREES soooo close to the house/basement walls! sheesh If ya like trees that much go hang out with Yogi and Boo Boo at Jellystone National park http://www.toontracker.com/huck/yogi.htm
Not saying water doesn`t cause weight/pressure, just not as much as running/flowing water can cause.
If one digs a trench along house/basement wall all the way down and turns the hose on and fills up the trench, sure the weight of the water is against a wall, BUT....There would be more weight/pressure against the basement wall if you added that same amount of water to silt/clay soil that is against many basement walls.The amount of Water-in-the-Soil, saturated soil, causes the soil to expand, creates pressure/force agst a wall.
On the other hand, as we witnessed with hurricane Katrina, FLOWING/moving water all-by-itself is a completely other matter, get the heck outta the way, right!
'Basement Walls MUST be sealed to.. (AHEM!)..PREVENT water-intrusion', hello? Do you understand Inside-gang? Maybe one day, you`ll begin informing folks of the facts ....maybe not
the inside goofs who try `n tell ya exterior waterproofing isn`t necessay or other garbage like.. sealing the outside of basement walls was already done when built and it didn`t work then and won`t work now etc etc, they are simply preaching NONSENSE, FALSE CLAIMS
link after link, not necessary huh? you look pretty foolsih spreading this misinformation around to many unknowing homeowners
Mr Mike has it right, least in question from Larry T in NY.....
Q) How to seal the outside on blcoks so that there is no penetration from water? Contractors have suggested that I DON`T-need to seal the EXTERIOR of blocks, I should just place drains on the inside of the wall at the base......
A) you`ve got to stop the water from coming in--any amount is too much. Alot of contractors will tell you that you can use an interior weeping system, usually because its less work than excavating around basement and sealing from outside.I prefer to seal the exterior of the blocks.Period........
...."during periods of heavy rainfall, the situation intensifies. Many soils ABSORB vast-quantities of WATER and this added water, COMBINED with the SOIL, pushes-against your foundation wall. This FORCE is commonly referred to as hydrostatic pressure."
What is PREFERRED method for dealing with damp and leaking basements, huh?
Moody Blues...the seven wonders of the world he`ll lay before your feet, in far off lands, on distant shores, so many friends to meet. Are you sitting comfortably? Let Merlin cast his spell.
Hi, this forum is great, thank you so much for all your insight. I have a question that may have been asked already, but the site is really slow & I can't find much, so I apologize in advance for the potential dupe.
We just bought an old home w/ a fieldstone foundation (circa +/- 1850). The foundation is in surprisingly great shape but the floor is a mess -- there are holes in the cement which expose the clay underneath & many "bad fixes" (concrete "channels" in the floor) plus a somewhat dysfunctional sump pump. The other issue is the water table -- this town has a notorioiusly high water table and we've met quite a few people there already and they ALL say they've got water in the basement.
So to that end... now that it's spring, so do we -- about 2" of standing water in the center at the moment. We just got an estimate for an "internal fix" such as you describe -- e.g. demolish the existing slab, remove about 6" of dirt, install a drainpipe around the perimter, add a new sump and cap it all off w/ new concrete -- all to the tune of OVER $20,000.
Needless to say we're a little shellshocked.
Now reading your forum I'm obviously more troubled. But my concern is the foundation -- I have heard horror stories about old homes & the land around them settling -- what happens when we dig out around the foundation and disturb soil that's been there for 100+ years? Any chance of weakening the foundation? And, when the issue really does truly seem to be a water table issue vs. a leaky foundation problem, is digging out around the house really going to solve this problem? Any and all insight greatly appreciated!
any water coming from wall(s)? If so then you should waterproof the problem/leaky area(s) outside if you want to stop/prevent further water from entering.
way you describe, sounds like you have several problems. a basement floor that as you say 'is a mess/holes in it', a screwy sump pump etc
if the floor can`t be repaired to keep water from entering through-it/is to thin/breaking up then you may need a new floor. Or, if the sump isn`t doing its job(and ya have no power back up for sump) and house is on a spring or below sea level then, this possibly could be the only problem. could go on `n on with the possibilities. Determining what problem(s) are FIRST is in YOUR best interests.
No need for a new floor if only problem is faulty sump OR a blockage-in-sump-tiles. If there is a blockage you`ll need a good/honest plumber to snake. Water can accumulate under floor upon rainfalls and rise up THROUGH any openings in floor due to what i just said, its very possible.
See, some companies who install inside systems know this much, that some homeowners only need is to free blockage in existing sump line but instead of being honest and telling HO to snake first, they`ll bllcht them into an inside system w/new sump(s) or inside system and repair/free blockage in existing sump line.
No need for any inside system if problem/leak/water on floor is coming through part(s) of foundation wall, fix exterior of wall where needed if you want to stop/prevent water from entering.
fairly recently did a stone foundation in PA, many openings where water/moisture entering between stones and where water-line entered foundation wall, water on floor/damp walls/some mold on walls. Was on a hillside, not alot of fun digging it out as there was a bunch of CHTT backfilled agst walls but, its what was needed to prevent further water from entering through walls etc. Insects can easily enter through same openings/gaps on outside of walls, so too can radon.
say it again, define the problem(s) first. Exterior of walls still should be waterproofed and backfilled correctly when homes are built, period! Take the TIME and READ what OTHER links say, shtt, not asking anyone to believe my every word. If you have a problem(s) then take the time to read, learn, inform yourself, some will save themselves many THOUSANDS.
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
We are 100 feet above sea level or so but the area is clay. Don't believe we're on a spring either.
The problem most likely isn't a blockage in the sump line as there is no "line" per se -- that's what I mean by screwy -- their sump "system" consists of channels dug out around the perimeter of the floor and one in the center of the floor (that isn't even sloped, hence the "standing pool" right now) vs. tiles. This all leads to an exposed pump (essentially an open hole in the floor) that pumps water to the outside. A "cheap fix" to say the least. I truly don't believe there's water coming from any of the walls, only from the floor, both where the "channels" are along the walls and the occasional holes in the middle.
not much more to add without seeing basement. you obviously knew basement had/was going to have problems. did you have hm inspection? if so, what did inspector have to say about basement?
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
Sorry, missed your first question, we're in northern New England. Yep re: issues. Inspector said basically what I've said here: walls in great shape, floor a mess. He agreed w/ what you're saying in this forum as well -- issue is best addressed OUTside not inside & he has seen many an inside "fix" fail.
So with all that said, a question about redoing the floor... and probably a dumb one that's not quite phrased right. When we rip up the floor, b/c we kind of have to, what kind of drainage DO we put in it if an inside fix is not the ticket? I'm sure you've addressed that in previous posts so I will dig... and probably be back w/ more questions.
This forum is great and makes a lot of sense. We are having water in the basement on heavy downpours and received quotes on the "inside" solution (sump pumps and interior drain). Water seems to be springing from where the foundation wall and the floor meets. The "outside" solution makes a lot more sense. Unfortunately, we are not handy people. Can anybody recommend a contractor that does the "outside" solution in the Northern NJ area? All waterproofers I called only does the "inside" solution. Thanks for any input.
Posts: 1 | Location: NJ | Registered: 16 April 2007
If you think this forum makes a lot of sense, and it does, then you will know that the FIRST thing you have to do is DEFINE THE PROBLEM! You could have water entering through your foundation wall; you could be in an area with a high water table. Right now, based on what we know, anything is possible. In a small minority of cases, an inside system is exactly what is needed...but in the VAST majority of cases, the cure is to determine WHERE water may be entering your foundation, and deal with ir there.
Find, in one of many of LicensedWaterproofing's posts, his procedure for testing with a garden hose. The tests are for both above-grade and below-grade problems. They may take a couple of days to do, since they should be done methodically. That much, you CAN do yourselves. Then, once you know where the problem lies, you'll be in better position to deal with contractors.
Repairing foundations is not everyone's cup of tea. It requires hand excavation, sometimes quite deep, and a lot of care to avoid cave-ins. Repairing the wall and waterproofing it should, again, be done as LicensedWaterproofer recommends in this forum. All this is only IF the problem is properly diagnosed as leaking foundation walls. Incidentally, you don't have to do the entire foundation, if it only admits water in one or two places.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2570 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
The sudden failure of a masonry block wall is dangerous and expensive.In addition to the immediate damage caused to the wall, additional damage can occur to the overlying structure.An ensiung risk of water and/or fire damage to the structure also exists.
Basement walls are subject to lateral pressure from-the-weight-of-the-soil-piled-against-the-exterior.Moisture in the soil INCREASES the WEIGHT acting-upon-the-wall.If the SOIL becomes SATURATED, the weight of water creates hydrostatic pressure, which also acts-upon-the-wall.
Failures occur when the forces caused by the weight of the soil and/or water exceeded the ability of a wall to resist the force.Basement wall failures OFTEN occur following extended periods of rain, or sudden downpours, when the air spaces between the soil particles becomes filled with water. The strength of a wall is determined by its construction.Improper construction, coupled with SATURATION of the SOIL, is the MOST COMMON CAUSE of BASEMENT WALL FAILURES.
Generally, failures due to excess soil and/or hydrostatic forces CAUSE lateral CRACKS along the mortar joints in the masonry block, usually near mid-point of a wall length,half way up the way. The center of a masonry block wall is often the weakest point.There are no perpendicular walls bracing the wall near the center, as there are at the corners.The base of the wall is braced by the concrete floor and the top of the wall is braced by the floor joists.The mortar joints are weaker than the masonry blocks.
There are often tell-tale signs a masonry block wall is in danger of failure.Inward bulging or bowing of a wall is a sign the EXTERNAL PRESSURE is too great.Bulging or bowing may be accompanied by lateral cracks in the mortar joints.The sudden appearance of water seepage or stains through the wall, if near cracks, is a sign saturated conditions exist outside the foundation wall.Interior finishes, such as paneling or wallboard, can HIDE the effects
"Although more common in communities that have a combined sanitary and storm sewer system, sewer back up can occur where there are separate systems.It CAN be CAUSED by 2 things:
1) the sewer lines on your property are broken, CLOGGED with roots or debris, or directly-connected-to your roof or footing drains,when HEAVY RAINS occur, the lines cannot carry the addidtional water, so it backs up into your basement.If this is the case of your flooded basement,you can FIX-the-problem relatively easy...Contact a plumber or contractor" ...see DIAGRAM on left
snake, snake snake....a good/honest plumber. You MOST LIKELY do NOT need ANY kind of bs inside system.
ask again, when was the last time anyone heard an INSIDE salesperson/company RECOMMEND snaking, huh? Probably never! Thats no joke either..these people either do not know/understand these possible back-ups/snaking and/or don`t give a shtt about you. Yeah yeah, their commercials/ads etc try and explain otherwise, yeah, they care so much about every homeowner...bllcht. Know what they care about? They care about how much money they can soak you for, how much they think they can get away with in writing up that estimate..yeah yeah, such experts who care so deeply about you and your problem....BS.
Hello everyone! Today I have been reading and asked a lot about seepage in the basement, hoping I would find some information that could help me with my HUGE problem in the basement. This is how I came upon your forum. Re
It should keep water off your bsmt floor, thats it.
grading problems,adequate on lot drainage systems and areas of moisture INGRESS" ingress = a means or place of entering,entrway 
