First, NOTHING tells us that he is a soils ENGINEER. When he can display a license, he can assume that title; not before.
Anyone can type the word "license", we are on the internet here. Look at the home inspection trade, any joe blow can offer "licenses" but unless they are through some government agency or accredited assocation, it doesn't mean a whole lot. Besides, how do you know he isn't licensed?
quote:
Second, LicensedWaterproofer has been PLAGUED with inside water diverter contractors posting under assumed names, not offering any information that may be of value to the public who reads this forum, and attacking his posts and himself personally.
There's those words again, persmal and attack. I don't see how telling a person that some of his statements are inaccurate are personal attacks. Its a differing opinion, nothing more - no matter how much you read into it.
quote:
Fourth, the "attitude" on this forum is primarily one of helping people with problems. None who do so are expecting any personal gain from their contributions here.
I couldn't agree more. But if someone comes in and disagrees with something posted, it's in the best interest of everyone to find out what's correct. Not immediately dismiss them because he does't have "licensed" in front of his name. Also how do you know that KYO isn't one of those people that can give sound good advice? He makes a disagreeing statement, and gets called a bozo. In yours and LWP's tunnel vision, you may have driven away some potentially great advice and information on soil mechanics and lanscaping.
quote]Had the landscaper posted links to sites which backed up his opinions, I'm sure LicensedWaterproofer would have gone to them and read them with great interest, as I would have, or you would have.[/quote]
Oh please, he said that some of LWP statements were at best inaccurate. Then he got called a bozo. Instead of the name calling he could of simply what statements he was referring to.
quote:
To suggest that a highly experienced man who bends over backwards to help people for no expectation of personal gain go "back to the textbooks" is about a dime short of a serious insult, and THAT is why I responded the way I did. And I'd do it again.
No one is doubting his expertise, I have said it, you've said it, KYO said it. But guess what? There are some things you just can't learn out in the field - I wouldn't have to do yearly education to keep my government issued license if that were the case. You as an architect should know that.
General Contractor/Home Builder
Posts: 288 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 15 January 2007
Originally posted by Richard Hetzel: By the same token, I'm suspicious of people who post one-line responses to peoples' questions, and then say "email me for further discussion", or words to that effect. Why? Because first, this is a public forum, and many more people than one stand to gain by answers and advice posted here. Second, because most of us put our round things on the line here, for all to see and evaluate, and we risk being wrong occasionally while trying to help to the best of our ability. I believe that if someone uses this forum to give advice, they should give it in public.
Some (not all) of those who say "email me" are saying it so they can try to sell their inappropriate solutions out of the public eye, and that I object to.
We never know who, besides the person we're responding to, may benefit from our discussions. No one benefits from "email me".
I must of missed a complete post because I didn't see anything on his posts like "email me", did something get deleted that I didn't see or something?
General Contractor/Home Builder
Posts: 288 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 15 January 2007
First off LWP, you need to learn to read and stop putting words in my mouth.
Second, I suppose I'm going to waste my breath here because it is obvious the buck stops at your door when it comes to soil mechanics and engineering, hydrology, geotechnical engineering, microbiology, plant biology, and entomology. I suppose since you have spent 25+ years digging ditches and slinging tar, you have a complete grasp and are an authority (or at least according to your endless repetitive posts) in all these fields.
But hey, I was trying to save you face by giving you a heads up, but if you want to make your ignorance public then so be it. Here's some samples of your inaccurate statements.
1) "But when someone raises and slopes the grade and extends downspouts 4-10' away water on heavier-longer rains & spring thaws is still going to go into the ground,yes a lil further away, but it will still accumulate in the ground and spread out--wick under all these diverting techniques, and spread in all directions underground incl`g back towards your bsmt wall,even under a driveway-patio. There is NO Underground Bias,below grade..the ground is not sloped."
In fact, water movement in soils is VERY bias and is governed by many factors. Here are terms to add to your list of things you don't understand. Porosity, permeability, particle size, tortuosity, hydraulic conductivity, matric potential, water potential. These are just a few factors that are involved in determining water movement in soils.
Lets speak generally so you can understand. Water movement is downward (due to the force of gravity), and from wet to dry areas (due to capillary forces).
Also last time I checked, code states you must discharge roof drains a minimum of 5 feet from foundation/slab or to an approved drain system when building in expansive soils, and provide a minimum surface grade away from foundation (6in / 10ft).
2) "They give one definition of Hydrostatic pressure when they say 'standing fluid' against wall, but hydrostatic pressure is also when the SOIL gets saturated w/water `n expands against Outside of wall."
What part of hydrostatic do you not understand? Hydro (water/fluid), static (not moving/at rest).
The ONLY thing soil has to do with the hydrostatic pressure of a fluid is that the fluid is contained within it.
Do you see ANY reference to soils in these definitions?
In general the swelling potential of a clay is related to percent of smectite in the soil, CEC (cation exchange capacity), and the percentage of exchangeable sodium. A clay soil does not have to be saturated to expand.
3) "Many walls crack,bow,buckle in due to...horizontal hydrostatic pressure that is on/against the OUTSIDE of basement walls. The expanding-contracting of soil puts tons of weight-pressure on the outside of a wall, tree roots can also crack a wall & put pressure agst a wall."
Major contradiction here. Which factor is causing the cracking, hydrostatic pressure or soil expansion.
Also note you did not specify clay soil. Guess what, gravel and sand are also soils. Does your statement also apply to those soils?
4) "Here`s some more crap...this is 1 of the most believed Myths and redundantly repeated/reprinted 'what-ta-do`s' in waterproofing...many state "90% of all basement seepage problems can be fixed by merely raising the grade & sloping, and extending downspouts"....are you kidding me?"
I don't know about 90% of the time but consider this. If there is no water present at the surface of the foundation then it's not going to leak. It can't get any simpler than that. If it has been determined that basement leaking (be it crack, penetration, or capillary) is occurring because water is being dumped and/or is collecting (due to improper slope) on the surface near the foundation, doesn't common sense tell you that if you remove that water the leaking will stop?
I suppose in your corner of the world basement leaking will still occur even when there is no water available to create the leak in the first place.
I would also appear you are stating here that national code requirements are also hogwash.
Should I go on because I can pick just about any one of the 38 pages of this forum topic and find inaccurate information you have posted.
If I was interviewing you for a waterproofing job and you spouted any of the above nonsense I would stop you there and thank you for your time.
BTW, thanks to Jay for stepping up. I am not a soil engineer nor did I ever claim to be. I did spend 10 years in higher education, 5 of which was devoted to soil science, hydrology, and plant biology. I also have been landscaping for 12 years in soils where the clay content far exceeds anything you will ever see in MI.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: KYO,
Does the word "pedantry" mean anything to anyone? I'm sure it means a lot more than the word "smectite" to most. We are dealing with people here who have thousands of different occupations and training, the vast majority of which do not care how much smectite is in their soil, They care that their basements be dry. We are talking about a simple remedy that almost anyone can do, and it works, whether there is smectite or not. This is not a scientific treatise or a doctoral dissertation. It is people with some experience trying to help people with problems.
Who cares whether the forces that crack, bow, or collapse their basement walls are from hydrostatic pressure or from little gremlins? The people who ask questions here want to know how best tó fix their problem, and we try our best to answer them. Expecting a hands-on contractor with years of successful experience to worry about smectite is ridiculous. Find problem, fix problem, that's what we're dealing with here, not the science of soils.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2492 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
"... the FIRST thing you have to do is DEFINE THE PROBLEM!"
Gee, and I thought having as much valid information at hand in order to make an intelligent and informed decision was the best way to approach a problem.
"When I see a post which attacks another poster without contributing anything of substance, I become suspicious of its intent, simply because so many (or maybe just one or two under many different names) have done the same thing."
Condemned if I do, condemned if I don't.
It would seem to me that if your foundation is not surrounded by a soil with a swelling potential then what is the point of replacing it? Given this, it WOULD seem prudent to determine if your dealing with an expansive soil and if that soil and associated properties is causing foundation cracking.
The point is precaution. Probably cheaper to buy the pea gravel that it would be to retain a soils engineer and pay laboratory fees, and faster, too. And what harm can it do? The job gets done, and it works. We're not talking about huge commercial projects here, we're talking about little holes in the ground that a family which Í'm sure has other priorities is paying for.
Technically, I , for one, do not have the expertise to argue soil mechanics with you. That was a given. But this forum isn't about arguing soil mechanics, it's about helping people deal with problems, and we do it quite well, I believe. I invite you to join us, in that spirit, and lend your expertise as well, I'm sure that in 22 years of schooling and experience, you've gained a lot of it.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2492 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
It would seem that a soil analysis to determine what you are dealing with is going to be far cheaper than spending 100's, if not 1000's of dollars replacing a soil that doesn't need replacing.
look, i am sooooooooooo tired of the NONSENSE/LIES.. i wll soon be posting PICS here of what the fk i`m talking about these scammers/LIARS do NOT fix/remedy, never have, never will, NOT with ANY inside system!!!!!!
Jay/bsmtgut/bsmtanswer/MrLandscaper/ANY Inspector/GOVET this or that...i, and OTHERS, will prove MANY of YOU scamming water-diverting Co`s have Misrepresented facts, have adverstied FALSE CLAIMS etc...all for your lil wimpy az self-gain. Lets get this shtt in COURT
ANYONE.....i mean ANYONE, who recommends to any homeowner, that they should call ANY member of the NAWSRC for WATEPROOFING should be TOTALLY LIABLE for any `n all screw ups....i will HELP ANY homeowner in ANY STATE who gets screwed by any member of any ORG, including the BBB.
see what happens when ATTY Gen looks into YOUR CLAIMS in YOUR advertising/marketing...lets SEE!!!!! You BEST back up what ya post/advertise/claim/try `n SELL to homeowners on EVERY Dang estimate baby, i...and Others KNOW YOU CANNOT. We`ll see bigshots, we will see
the fact you dummies are even here taslking crap makes ME happy, tells me your quite worried of ALL-the-FACTS getting out...you`ll do/say/post ANYTHING to TRY and shut the ACE kid up here, lol. Thats Right! Listen....you keep trying ok...but you`ll NEVER kick he fcats to the curb again, its ALL coming OUT baby, time for many of ya` s to eat SHTT! You cooked it, YOU EAT IT!
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
You might want to make sure that all claims you make against me and the associations I am a member of, are accurate and true. I would love the opportunity to get a liar like your self in court!
Nationally Certified Waterproofer by the NAWSRC.com
Posts: 96 | Location: Columbus | Registered: 30 December 2005
ya see the CRAP an honest contractor has to deal with...just online, imagine what these fools are like to deal with week to week as many of them try and bs homeowners with false claims/misrepresentations etc
quote:
Originally posted by Basementguy: Mr. Probably not licensed waterproofer
You might want to make sure that all claims you make against me and the associations I am a member of, are accurate and true. I would love the opportunity to get a liar like your self in court!
check for yourself...don`t believe what i post...fine, no problem. are the following NAWSRC members or not?
are the following customer complaints `n other information BBB lists true or not?
And, as of this date, your ORG`s website CLAIM`s you require strict ethics and standards from MEMBERS....and these ethics have become a MODEL for the industry.....is this what you/your ORG states or not?
..'strict ethics and standards'...strict = rigously enforced/extremely defined/exact/precise/absolute
YOU check and then let us know if this information is correct or not,i am asking if the following is TRUE or not, got it? And IF the INFO is correct and your ORG`s claims of great-high ethics and standards are actually true, why are any of `em still members...huh?
again, a partial list...
are the following members of your ORG? is info correct or not?
-Basement Serv 911 Pennsylvania 'Unsatisfactory record due to unanswered complaints'
-Romish Ent aka Everdry New York 'pattern of complaints from consumers who report dissatisfaction w/company services'
-Orig. Basement RX Pennsylvania 'despite CLAIMS on it`s website and phone book ads, this company is not a member of the Better Business Bureau...'
-Everdry Fort Wayne IND NOW out of business, was a member of your ORG till then. Atty Gen filed lawsuit that they din`t meet states req`s to provide specific info in its contracts to customers,warranties provided were not effective
-Basement Technologies MASS. 'Mass St Board concluded company violated the Home Imp Contractor Law, incl`g abandong or failure to perfrom contracts,misrepresentaion and violation of Bldg Laws
-Everdry of Michiana 'Unsatisfactory record due to pattern of complaints, complaints regarding workmanship,contract-issues,sales methods
Is this correct info or NOT? If its TRUE then whats the real deal of ORG`s supposed strict ethics `n standards....help inform us of the facts please, thank you
Jay/bsmtgut/bsmtanswer/MrLandscaper/ANY Inspector/GOVET this or that...i, and OTHERS, will prove MANY of YOU scamming water-diverting Co`s have Misrepresented facts, have adverstied FALSE CLAIMS etc...
quote:
Originally posted by LicensedWaterproofer:
Kyo/Jay/Frank/bsmtanswer etc etc...
see what happens when ATTY Gen looks into YOUR CLAIMS in YOUR advertising/marketing...lets SEE!!!!! You BEST back up what ya post/advertise/claim/try `n SELL to homeowners on EVERY Dang estimate baby, i...and Others KNOW YOU CANNOT. We`ll see bigshots, we will see
quote:
Originally posted by JayinMinnesota:
I know I will probably be accused of being an inside guy with an agenda but I can assure you that is not true.
Why not address some of the things KYO brought up instead of this? How about that $18 test first instead of all the money on pourious material next to your foundation? Don't you think that's feasible? I'd love to hear your take on this LWP.
General Contractor/Home Builder
Posts: 288 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 15 January 2007
Thanks for your posts. I've really learned alot from reading what you guys have to say. I think I've located the cracks in my basement wall that leak water with the occasional rainstorm. I want to repair them from the outside as you describe. Do either of you guys know who I can call? I live in the Sussex county NJ area. I want to find out what it would cost to hire somebody vs making it a DIY thing. Thanks. Brian
Posts: 15 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 18 April 2007
The purpose of the pea gravel is precautionary. It protects the waterproofing membrane bewtter than normal backfill which may contain rocks, stumps, and/or construdction debris. No $18 test will determine the presence or absence of those things. Also, what is a contractor expected to do...come in and excavate, take a soil sample, send it to a lab and go away while waiting for an analysis, and then come back to the job and do it? And when he finds stuff in the backfill that hadn't shown up in the sample, how does the owner then feel about being hit with an extra for gravel backfill? Or else an extra to sift through the backfill and remove that stuff before replacing it?
LicensedWaterproofer says that a typical cost of one of his projects is about $1800 if memory serves me correctly. How much of that can be for gravel, when you consider all the manual labor that is most of the cost of the job? Use your heads, guys, you're both supposed to be contractors! To earn a living, you need to come in, do the job, get paid, and get out, and leave it in such a condition that you won't get a call-back.
You're both being silly, and mr. basementguy is, as usual, being completely obnoxious. We expect that of him. We don't expect it of you.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2492 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
After posting a topic on my own basement water issues and receiving some advice from Richard, I went hunting for more discussions on this issue and came across this long discussion.
I tried to read as much as possible and have to admit I am getting a bit confused.Why? Well I think my water problem is the height of the water table. AS I mentioned to Richard in my posting, I unpplugged the sump pump for a couple of minutes, and I could see how fast the water was rising inside the sump well and in about 2 minutes the floor was soaked. Other ares of the basment have new crack on the floor where water bubbling through. This part of town is all ledge, and everyone on my street has water issues with their basement's, some more than others.
One last note. This foruns serve a great purpose. To educate a lot of us who are not experts in the building industry. We all come here to seek and give advice and exchanged difference of opinions with others. I am no expert in any construction subject, but I have done more than my share of projects, to know when someone has posted erroneous advice. There is nothing to be gained with lies, accusations and negative confrotantions. If someone represents themselves here incorrectly and others have proof that can be shared with everyone about these individuals false claims, then I wholeheartdely agree that the proof should be posted to prevent some of us from following advice which may cost us serious money. We are all homeowners and the reason why we are seeking advice is so we can perform the work and thus save money.
My basement is still wet.LOL
Paul
Posts: 14 | Location: Clinton, Ma | Registered: 19 April 2007
look, i am sooooooooooo tired of the NONSENSE/LIES.. i wll soon be posting PICS here of what the fk i`m talking about
Are we dealing with a 12 year old boy here or a man who is probably in his 50's? I am having a hard time telling the difference.
quote:
these scammers/LIARS do NOT fix/remedy, never have, never will, NOT with ANY inside system!!!!!!
People used to think the earth was flat too. Knowledge changes, technology changes. Stating that no inside system will EVER work just shows how ignorant and narrow minded you are.
This is distributed by ORNL-BEP (Oak Ridge National Laboratory - Building Envelopes Program) which is part of the National Program for Building Thermal Envelope Systems and Materials.
Chapter 2, Section 2, Pg. 17
"There are three basic lines of defense against water problems in basements: (1) surface drainage, (2) subsurface drainage, and (3) dampproofing or waterproofing on the wall surface."
"The final line of defense—waterproofing—is intended to keep out water that finds its way to the wall of the structure."
Odd, they state waterproofing is the FINAL line of defense, not the ONLY line of defense. Only an idiot would NOT remove the water from around their house if they have basement leaking problems.
Chapter 2, Section 2, Pg. 18
"The following recommendations apply where termites are a potential problem."
"1. Minimize soil moisture around the basement by using gutters, downspouts, and runouts to remove roof water, and by installing a complete subdrainage system around the foundation."
Once again, number one recommendation for controlling termites is removing the water from around your house.
According to my copy of Code Check:
Site grading IRC 401.3, UBC 1829.2
"Surface graded away from fndn min. 6in. / 10ft."
Foundation Drainage IRC 405.1, UBC 1834.1
"Foundation retaining earth and enclosing usable space require footing drains discharging to approved drain system."
Foundation Drainage IRC 405.2.3, UBC 1834.4
"Basements require sump pump for other than group 1 soils"
Foundation Drainage IRC 801.3
"If soils are expansive or collapsible, roof drain must discharge min. 5ft. from footing or to approved drain system."
There may be more, these are just the ones that stand out.
MOLD
You keep saying mold is coming into peoples house through these cracks. Mold is not coming into peoples houses through these cracks, water is. Couple of things to point out here.
1) While it is possible that water coming in through the crack does contain mold spores, the vast majority of your mold spores are entering your house via air changes.
2) Mold will not grow JUST because there is water present. It also needs a food source, appropriate temperatures, and in many cases low or no light.
3) Water IS the primary limiting factor for mold growth and in just about every case the easiest to remove.
4) High humidity can also lead to mold growth.
Point is, if you see mold in your basement you should not automatically assume it is coming from a leak in your foundation.
If you want references for this, I'd be more than happy to provide them. I am currently rebuilding our house that is now gutted due to a black mold problem. Beyond my education in plant biology I have literally spent well over 100 hours researching mold issues in buildings. This research was conducted due to a mold remediation company that tried to rip us off. Needless to say, they got what was coming to them, a legal judgement in our favor.
Hypothetical Case Scenario
Lets consider this. We have a hypothetical house with an isolated crack near a downspout in the foundation causing leaking inside. This foundation was back filled with an expansive clay soil and has no surface or subsurface drainage.
According to the recommendations LWP has given:
quote:
When a homeowner has 1 vertical/diagonal/step/corner crack then that's all they need to do-fix. There is no reason to waterproof 1,2+ walls when a homeowner is only leaking in 1 area.
quote:
We always backfill w/peastone because of its immediate drainage along the outside of the wall & because there is less settling than sand & a ton less settling than any other soil.
"French drain refers to a ditch filled with gravel, rock that redirects surface and ground water away from an area."
So lets say I am the homeowner and I interview LWP. He convinces me that all I need to do is waterproof the foundation in the area of the leak.
Using LWP's approach, a trench big enough to get to the crack, making sure to slope the sides of the trench in order to prevent it from collapsing, is dug by hand. The crack is sealed and the trench back filled with pea gravel, sand, or gravel.
So now lets review what LWP just did.
He dug a trench in a soil that is highly compressible with low permeability. He dug this sloped trench to the depth of the footing. In the process of sealing the crack he has created a compacted layer of clay soil (foot traffic, equipment, etc.) right at same level as the footing. Now he back fills this trench with a soil that has high permeability.
What is going to happen when water falls into the area where the trench was dug?
Water will move rather quickly through the soil with a high permeability and essentially stop when it hits the soil with the lower permeability. When this water reaches the bottom of the trench it encounters a compacted layer of clay and once again essentially stops.
This means I have now created a french drain that not only has a wall sloping towards my foundation, but a compacted layer of clay at the bottom which inhibits water moving through it. Since there is no subsurface drainage here this means I have essentially created a perched water table right at the base of my foundation in the area that is prone to cracking.
So what did LWP do here.
1) He fixed the leaking at the crack.
2) He created a french drain that carries water directly to the base of my foundation and allows it to collect there.
3) He back filled with a different soil than was there originally. Now we have differential forces acting on the foundation wall which could lead to more cracking.
4) He has created a situation that is conducive to capillary movement of water into the house through the bottom (horizontal) portion of the footing by allowing water to collect at the bottom of the trench.
LWP gets +1 bonus points for fixing the leak, and -3 bonus points for possibly creating more problems than existed to begin with.
So LWP has fixed the leak as promised, but in the process has potentially created conditions that may lead to more leaking on other portions of the wall.
Couple of years down the road I have a new leak in a different area of my foundation. Since LWP did such a good job fixing my first leak, I'll call him again, not realizing that his previous work may have directly or indirectly caused the new leak. This goes on and on until finally my entire foundation has been waterproofed.
What do we have here? We have a piecemeal approach to this problem, and EVERY contractor knows you will make more money doing little bits of big job over a long period of time.
Now let me ask you LWP, is piecemeal work honest?
The bigger problem here is:
1) No surface drainage 2) No subsurface drainage 3) Expansive/collapsible soil against foundation 4) Possible construction defects in foundation
While we can't reasonably address item 4 without considerable expense, we can address items 1-3 to PREVENT cracking in the first place. If you prevent cracking and keep water AWAY from your foundation, you prevent water infiltration into your basement.
Given the above scenario, in my eyes it is well worth the up front one time expense of fixing items 1-3, in addition to dampproofing (inside and outside), waterproofing (outside), and insulating the foundation. A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I'm not endorsing any particular approach here. I believe you do whatever it takes to fix the problem permanently.
BTW, dishonest contractors, contractors that are out to make a quick buck, contractors who could care less about doing a job right or cut corners in order to increase their profit margin are the scum of the earth.
No $18 test will determine the presence or absence of those things.
That is true. Knowledge of the particular builder and his practices will though. If you know who built the place, and you also know he throws garbage into his backfill, it is not a stretch to assume there is garbage in the backfill. I'm sure LWP with almost 30 years of experience can tell you exactly which builders are guilty of doing this in his area.
quote:
Also, what is a contractor expected to do...come in and excavate, take a soil sample, send it to a lab and go away while waiting for an analysis, and then come back to the job and do it?
Actually what a contractor should do is when doing the estimate, get a shovel and dig out some soil. Grab a handful, wet it, and try rolling it into something that resembles a worm. If this can be done even in part, then you have clay in your soil. Most homeowners that garden can tell you if they have clay in their soil.
You can also simply look it up on the soil map. The soil type in the area will tell you what your dealing with and if a soil test is needed.
If hired for the job and are unsure how expansive the soil might be, auger a sample at an average depth and send it to the lab, or find a lab locally you can take it to. Most labs turn around is 1-2 days.
How many contractors do you know that can do a job at the drop of a hat? Most have weeks if not months
