BTW LWP, you continue to say I am someone I am not. If you don't believe me then I suggest you write one of your emails to the site administrator and let him tell you that I am not who you think I am.
Also, have you ever heard of identity theft? If you want to post all your personal information on a public website that is your business. Just because I choose not to does not mean I am any less qualified to make the statements I have made. I am not trying to sell a product or service here therefore I have absolutely no reason or incentive to post personal information.
If someone can speak knowledgeably on a subject, regardless of how they obtained that knowledge, then their statements and opinions should be given consideration. This is especially true when those statements are backed with credible, and as Richard likes to put it, authoritative references, and those statements are CONSISTENT with the references.
Last time I checked Richard is not qualified in any way to give advice in this forum topic, and he admits as much, yet he does give advice all the time. Why do you not call him out LWP?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: KYO,
Cute name Richard, aren't we mature. Everything I have posted is valid information that people coming to this forum may want to know. I suppose you now speak for everyone who visits this thread?
I don't care if you do read my post(s), because you can provide no valid answers to the points I make. Both you and LWP have made that abundantly clear.
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a) there IS NO National Building Code, and (b) building codes do not apply to repairs.
I can't believe you just made this statement.
On the top of my Code Check for Buildings it states "Updated to the most current National Codes"
Now since we are talking about buildings, would that not imply that we are talking about National Building Codes. It is not a "code" in itself, but a combination of all codes that apply to the entire nation. How about you stop being an ass Richard?
Such codes are known as the national building codes (in a sense they enjoy a mandatory nation-wide application).
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(b) building codes do not apply to repairs.
That is funny because I am in the process of rebuilding or "repairing" my house after a black mold infestation and there are a MESS of codes that I have to comply to. Furthermore, if there is no code for repairs then why is LWP dealing with inspectors.
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The few cities around here who charge for permits/inspections for waterproofing...when they show up(rarely on time) they are there for about 1 minute, thats it....zip & gone! You would think they would care alot more about how the walls-cracks are sealed,
And in the event you haven't noticed Richard, this forum covers ALL discussion on basement waterproofing. I don't see it stated ANYWHERE that it ONLY applies to repairing cracks in existing foundations, do you? I believe the "etc" in the topic title pretty much covers it, heh?
You know Richard and LWP, you keep saying everything I have posted is nothing but lies and deception, yet you HAVE NOT OFFERED ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO SHOW OTHERWISE
Boys, either you step up or step down because your baseless accusations carry no water.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: KYO,
Star Trek err, Waterproofing Trek.....To boldy go where no man has gone before, these are the voyages of the Starship waterproofer
Continuing to post facts, to try `n help inform HO`s weed through ALOT of GARBAGE and, there IS indeed ALOT of garbage/lies/false claims. Say this over & over...
..how could it be that some companies who only/most always install inside systems and, who claim to be waterproofing experts continue to accumulate BBB and DEPT of Consumer Affair CUSTOMER COMPLAINTS month after month, year after year and notice...most of them offer you some sort of lifetime guarantee, well....
...if what they told you, sold you was what you really needed and, they have this supposed great lifetime warranty then WHYYYYYYY do HOMEOWNERS continue to FILE COMPLAINTS, HUH?
10-20-30-50+ Customer complaints just in the last 36 months, something very very wrong here.
To repeat- how can some of these SUPPOSED experts who, say they care so much about you, KEEP having the SAME problems month after month?
Either something works/stops water-mold or it DOESN`T! If what they sold you didn`t solve the problem then 1) why did THEY recommend it/sell it to you in the first place and 2) why didn`t they FIRST-DEFINE the ACTUAL problem, sheeesh!
Experts don`t continue to screw up!!! They don`t make the wrong recommendations this often, you kidding? lololol
Experts don`t have homeowners call the Dept of Consumer Affairs and BBB and go through buncha crap-time that it takes to make these complaints. Poor installations/workmanship,issues with those supposed-lifetime guarantees, also notice some of these companies have had ATTY GEN in their state file lawsuit agst them for various reasons.
Heres a recent story- i`m trying to tell folks to be dang-careful, DEFINE your leak-problem FIRST, do NOT allow many of these Inside salespeople to blllchttt you. Many do NOT DEFINE your leak, RATHER they blcccchttt YOU to sell you what they only/most always do/install....INSIDE SYSTEMS!
Did ya READ it? How about these folks.. 110 person building-envelope experts,engineer`s,architects who specialize in repair/renovation of buildings/sites etc
Positive side/exterior waterpf`g is "least problematic and MOST Successful Method--when installed PROPERLY"..."waterproofing below grade is critical to keeping a facility watertight"
Many homeowners have 1 or 2 leaky/problems areas...they have NO STRUCTURAL PROBLEM, they simply have a crack or loose parging or water entering where a service-line enters the wall, again...they have NO bowing/movement...just an opening or two that allows water to enter.
So, instead of bllcchhht`g them into more footage than necessary to solve the leak(s), like telling them to waterproof the entire wall or all the way around, a few of us honest contractors explain the facts to them/why they leak-even SHOW them why `n where water first enters with a HOSE/water test....provide them with numerous links to read/inform themselves if they choose and simply give them an estimate to fix their leak(s), problem areas which often is 5-6' in each area.
We hand dig, haul soil and all other garbage away, waterproof this portion of wall-the crack and backfill w/gravel. Doing this, small jobs-portions of a wall was all they needed at-that-point-in-time and again, they have NO wall movement/no shifting/bowing...waterproofing and backfilling with gravel has SOLVED their problem/leak and has NEVER created ANY sort of other problem, nearly 30 years!!!
Now, when a wall is bowing in a bit and HO has water coming in along 1-2 areas or all along cold joint/cove then, of COURSE whats BEST for THAT WALL is to HAND dig the...ENTIRE WALL! Doing one area of a wall like that will not help relieve/lessen all possible soil pressure off the ENTIRE wall...which IS needed.
Those with ANY common sense will completely understand this, its not that difficult to grasp
ONLY way/method to try and help relieve/lessen lateral hydrostatic pressure that is against the outside of a wall is from the, duh, outside!
Get RID of that-soil that expands and contracts, get RID of any roots that may be against a wall, get RID of any/all other CRAP the builder had backfilled against the wall incl`g pieces of concrete,boulders,wood,cans,blocks,bricks etc, get RID of that crap
That 'crap' along with the SOIL, does NOT allow water/rain to drain down, it helps keep pockets-of-water right-up AGAINST/NEAR a basement wall. This crap & soil creates more pressure/weight/force, get rid of it. Can`t get rid of it from inside the basement, well, maybe some inside people think they can, they need... 'special help'.
Thats another thing, where was the inspector on many of these dumb chtt backfills, huh? And wheres the builders brain/common sense? Tell ya where, most don`t care.
"even more important to keeping a basement dry if the foundation backfill process.....backfill with washed gravel from basement floor all-the-way-UP to within 2-3" of finished ground level outside home. This does everal things.....this type of DRAINAGE PREVENTS trapped water and SATURATED SOIL next to foundation from building up horizontal hydrostatic pressure against-the-wall....this pressure will crack walls, cause leaks and in worst case collapse wall inward'
'DESPITE these FACTS, most local building CODES require only 18" of coverage from the bottom up. The additional cost for full height backfill is approx $3,000..for this reason, most builders provide only the MINIMUM coverage required by code'
'Damproofing is an inexpensive way to meet the LOWEST MINIMUM standard of the building code'...a code does NOT mean its whats best for a basement wall, for the homeowner...anyone who believes this needs help. CHANGE the stupid code, its Not whats best for the HOMEOWNER!
I grow tired of this. Your an old blind fool who refuses to admit that just MAYBE he might be wrong.
I NEVER STATED YOUR METHOD OF WATERPROOFING A WALL DOESN'T WORK! How many times do I have to say that?
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how could it be that some companies who only/most always install inside systems
For the LAST time, my comments have NOTHING to do with inside vs. outside systems! Read and UNDERSTAND what I am writing before you post comments on it. You KEEP saying the SAME thing OVER AND OVER and continue to avoid answering the questions and points I bring up.
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Experts don`t continue to screw up!!! They don`t make the wrong recommendations this often, you kidding?
Your an expert LWP. Are you going to be man enough to admit that maybe you have made some bad recommendations?
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i`m trying to tell folks to be dang-careful, DEFINE your leak-problem
And that is the best advise you have given on this forum! However when I made some suggestions that would help define problems you ridicule and insult me. How is that constructive and helpful to homeowners?
There is alot of good and sound information here on building envelopes.
Unlike you LWP, when I reference something, it means I endorse the entire reference, not a sentence or two.
From the Building's Foundation Handbook, Page 17.
In most cases a damp-proof coating covered by a 4-mil layer of polyethylene is recommended to reduce vapor and capillary draw transmission from the soil through the basement wall. A damp-proof coating, however, is not effective in preventing water from entering through the wall. Waterproofing is recommended (1) on sites with anticipated water problems or poor drainage, (2) when finished basement space is planned, or (3) on any foundation built where intermittent hydrostatic pressure occurs against the basement wall due to rainfall, irrigation, or snow melt.
I highly recommend that anyone who has a house, is planning on buying or building a house, or has problems with their foundation/slab read this handbook, or at least the applicable parts of it.
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How about these folks.. 110 person building-envelope experts,engineer`s,architects who specialize in repair/renovation of buildings/sites
You need to LEARN HOW TO PROPERLY QUOTE A SOURCE. If you continue to quote sources without providing the information VERBATIM you open yourself to litigation.
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Positive side/exterior waterpf`g is "least problematic and MOST Successful Method--when installed PROPERLY"..."waterproofing below grade is critical to keeping a facility watertight"
The proper way to quote that passage is:
"Positive-side waterproofing Positive-side waterproofing is installed during new construction on the exterior of the new structure or after removing the overburden for an existing one. It requires access to the outside face of the structure—when this is impossible, blind- or negative-side techniques are often necessary. Positive-side waterproofing can be seen as the least problematic and most successful method because, when installed and designed correctly, the water pressure forces it to work. The design team has the ability to inspect all the lap joints and defects in the membrane with full visibility. However, the major disadvantage with positive-side waterproofing is when there are leaks due to faulty installation or building movement, repairs can only be made through excavation or negative-side waterproofing techniques."
You have stated MANY times that drainage will not help waterproof your basement. You say things like, won't hurt, but it also won't work. Yet from the same source as above (note first sentence):
"Drainage Proper drainage is critical in both horizontal and vertical applications. Some membrane types, such as hot-rubberized asphalt (HRA), can be used on very low or no-slope plaza deck applications. However, HRA systems cannot be installed on lightweight concrete fill. The drainage of vertical waterproofing can be enhanced with larger cross-section drainage boards (e.g. base drain) and may be piped into weep tubes discharging into below-slab drainage media. The drains on plaza or terrace installations can be of the spot or trench variety, depending on the ability to develop slope in the structure or with tapered insulation (below the membrane). Single-ply membrane types, such as those made of polyvinyl chloride (PVC) or thermoplastic polyolefin (TPO), are typically used on sloped surfaces. In all cases, some type of drainage should be developed atop the membrane to efficiently remove the water from the surface."
@Richard: Is that pedantic enough for you? Direct from LWP's source no less.
Since it is clear you just want to put words in my mouth, let me make my position CRYSTAL CLEAR for you.
If you have a leak fix it properly. What method you use will be determined by what type of leak you have.
Naturally, a crack in a wall is BEST FIXED ON THE EXTERIOR if possible! I have not stated ANYWHERE that it is not!
The ONLY exception to this would be for money reasons. If a homeowner is strapped for cash and there is a driving need to fix the leak now, it might be possible and substantially cheaper to take the DIY route and TEMPORARILY fix it from the inside, fully realizing that it is a TEMPORARY patch. While this patch will probably fail over time, it gives the homeowner time to save up enough money to do the job right, FROM THE EXTERIOR. I'm not going to pretend I know about every product on the market and how they work, so it is up to the homeowner to do the research and verify claims.
Is my position on this now clear enough for you LWP?
Let me make another point crystal clear to you.
Do not use products designed for damp-proofing to fix a leaking crack. Damp-proofing products are designed to protect against capillary water movement through concrete/mortar, and they WILL NOT span a crack. All homeowners should immediately distrust any person or company that claims otherwise.
Now see LWP, how hard is it to simply state that. No mucking through your endless repetitive rants, incomplete sentences, and abbreviated words trying to understand what the heck your trying to say.
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they have NO STRUCTURAL PROBLEM, they simply have a crack or loose parging or water entering where a service-line enters the wall, again...they have NO bowing/movement...just an opening or two that allows water to enter.
That is quite possibly true, yet YOU over and over again state that gravel backfill is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to relieve lateral pressures from expansive soils and hydrostatic pressure. I dare say that every building in the world is NOT backfilled with an expansive soil, in which case, why is it necessary to relieve a lateral load that doesn't exist? If my house is already backfilled with a soil such as sand, or any non-expansive soil, then tell me why do I need to replace it with gravel?
Let's get it clear for the homeowner.
The purpose of gravel backfill around foundations in areas where water and expansive soils is a known problem is two fold.
1) To reduce lateral loads on the foundation due to soil expansion.
2) To quickly move water that does end up near your foundation to a subsurface drainage system where it can be quickly removed.
In other words, to have gravel without subsurface drainage is only doing half of what needs to be done.
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That 'crap' along with the SOIL, does NOT allow water/rain to drain down, it helps keep pockets-of-water right-up AGAINST/NEAR a basement wall.
I think the important point to make clear here is not to allow water against the foundation in the first place! This is why you provide drainage away from your foundation.
To recommend that waterproofing the exterior of your wall is the only thing you need to do is simply wrong, and I guarantee you that Bob Villa, Tim from Ask The Builder, and your good friends from the Yoder Group will say the same.
When your references state you should backfill the wall with gravel, they are talking about the ENTIRE wall, not a localized part of it.
I don't expect you, or any homeowner, to understand the science behind the following statements, I only ask that you take the time to logically reason through the cause and effect relationships. I'm not going to provide references because I already provided them in previous posts.
1) Creating a french drain (i.e. digging a trench and backfilling it with gravel) in a clay soil without providing for drainage at the bottom of that trench can in fact lead to an INCREASE of water "AGAINST/NEAR" the footing and possibly the wall depending on how much water is present. This can not only be shown on paper, but can easily be shown in a simple demonstration. I know this not only through formal education but also experience working with drainage systems in clay soils.
2) I will also say that if water is present in your gravel, it will lead to an INCREASE in hydrostatic pressure against the wall when compared to same amount of water in a clay soil.
3) Furthermore, since your trench terminates at the footing, this means that water will be collecting "AGAINST/NEAR" the footing, and will effectively keep soils in the areas around your trench saturated. Since these areas have not been waterproofed by you, and given the likelihood of increased lateral and hydrostatic pressure in these areas, it has also increased the likelihood of foundation failure and leaking in those areas.
4) Also consider capillary movement of water through the bottom of the footing that your waterproofing does not protect against, unless your telling me that in addition to waterproofing the wall you somehow are also waterproofing the bottom horizontal portion of the footing as well.
5) And finally, you only point out that expansive soils are creating lateral loads on walls. What about heaving potential of that same soil and what it can do to the wall, floor slab, and footing? When a soil expands, it expands in all directions, not just laterally.
I will point out again so there is no confusion, the above 5 points is assuming there is NO effective subsurface drainage at the footing.
I will also say this. If anything positive is to be taken from this, it is the effectiveness of your waterproofing on the wall at that particular location in these situations.
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Thats another thing, where was the inspector on many of these dumb chtt backfills, huh? And wheres the builders brain/common sense? Tell ya where, most don`t care.
That is an EXCELLANT point. Why are builders being allowed to get away with this crap in the first place? You see, many of the problems with wet basements occur because THEY WERE NOT BUILT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
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local building CODES require only 18" of coverage from the bottom up.
If local building codes in a given city or town only require damp-proofing and 18" of gravel in an area that has a historical problem with expansive clays, groundwater/perched water tables, and leaking basements, then THAT CODE NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.
To put it all in a simple and straight forward way, effective foundation waterproofing is a combination of:
1) Foundation design suitable for the region and site conditions 2) Surface drainage away from your foundation 3) Subsurface drainage away from your foundation 4) Waterproofing and/or damp-proofing depending on site conditions and planned end use
If these are 4 things are done properly, your basement stands the greatest chance of staying dry over the life of the building.
LWP, educate the homeowners with ALL the facts, not just the ones that suit your one man crusade against inside systems.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: KYO,
this ANONYMOUS self-proclaimed soils expert, who first came on this thread and shht on me and said he is a landscaper-NOT a basement waterproofing expert, a landscaper who 'says' he has a degree in soil & water science,OH...and a minor in plant-biology but apparently no hands on bsmt waterproofing experience which, is what THIS-thread is about...'Basement Waterproofing'.
Maybe he should start his own 'soil & water & plant thread'. I suggest he spend some time maybe..... waterproofing basements. Its Beyond my azz how supposedly having a degree in soil & water science and plant biology makes one an expert in waterproofing with decades of PROVEN results.
Soily-pants likes to quote a 'builders foundation handbook'....really? Aren`t the builders a good chunk of the problem when it comes to waterproofing/backfilling...sure seems so! I didn`t notice ANY honest-licensed-experienced basement waterproofing experts in your builder handbook, who knows more about basement waterproofing...a builder or a waterproofing expert.
And Soily is correct on one thing at least, believe it or not , i do not and will not endorse an ENTIRE reference/article when i do not agrre with the ENTIRE article...hello? If there are some-truths and some not-so-true references then, i certainly am not going to agree with the whole thing, sheeshhh!!! Apparently Mr Soily does, whatever soily likes.
He says.."i am a blind fool" among other things Well, i may be a fool at some things but those certainly don`t pertain to basement waterproofing. If thats true, i should have hundreds or thousands of homeowners suing my rear, they`d have leaks galore, further mold/efflorescence,or as HE THINKS/wrongly assumes... walls bowing in-cracks widening, walls collapsing, footing problems.
I`ve NEVER stated most/every home has problems due to expansive soil against walls, no sireeeeeee. But listen Soily, after one waterproofs wall, IF one backfills with same soil, unless its sand, then that-soil that was just dug out and YOU want to backfill with can pull-down the the top 1-2' of the asphalt/tar and visqueen that was just applied to the wall, hello?
That soil is going to settle, now why take-the-chance of this occurring/of having the tar `n visqueen get pulled down just because YOU wanna save some money and backfill w/same soil. See THIS ALL THE TIME!!!! And will be posting pic`s in near future, of all kinds of SHTT.
That-same-soil YOU think is fine to backfill with will also COMPACT...compacting soil 'could' cause the crack one just waterproofed to RE-OPEN! Hello...DING DING DING! And like i KNOW, as soil settles and compacts....the asphalt-tar has NOT set-up/hardened (some in this trade do NOT use hydraulic cement, BIG MISTAKE). So Soily...again...you want to backfill with same SOIL which will settle and compact and could cause a problem...WHY? Why screw around and take that chance?
Now sand.....sure...sand is very good drainge along a bsmt wall, yep, BUT...here comes the truth again Soily.... sand will SETTLE more than gravel and i perosnally do not have the time to go back to most job sites and raise the freakin grade after its settled, got that? Oh...and Soily....what about backfilling with sand along walls where a patio or a driveway will be, what about the settling that WILL occur under a HO new patio/drive...your not worried about this? About having a BIG-space/gap of AIR under this shtt which could collapse...huh?
No sir Mister....you may possess the degree but this old man possesses the hands on knowledge, ya-gotta-DO-the-JOB, over and over, year after year, decade after decade, in ALL SOILS to SEE-WHAT-ACTUALLY-OCCURS-UNDERGROUND, along a basement wall, under patios-driveways, where gas and water lines exist....thats another topic for ya Mr Soily...
You would choose to backfill with same site soil over/ATOP/around gas lines/electric lines/water line where the soil will settle, will compact, could possibly DAMAGE the dang line(s)....you ever think of this shtt mister? No, i didnt think so.
By the way, most homes HAVE tile laid along footings ok, did you KNOW this....maybe not the real-old homes, hey...thats not my fault....go reference your-pals in your Builder handbook about that. Did ya know tiles are already under the FLOOR too? again, im looking at the builders-handbook references, don`t see ONE waterproofing EXPERT, most builders do NOT possess EXPERTISE in THIS trade, sorry...thats the truth, can you handle it?
post this, back for more of Soily`s terds in a bit....
Posts: 710 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 24 August 2005
It's like a broken record in here. Reminds me of the "King of the hill" episode I watched once where Hank Hill wrote to a congressman complaining about something or another and he got a letter back saying that "the congressman thinks that your problem and flag burning are forefront amongst todays issues, thats why we are introducting a bill banning flag burning"... in other words, in one ear and out another.
General Contractor/Home Builder
Posts: 319 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 15 January 2007
a) water is not going to be, as you say 'present' in gravel, thats why its considered to be the best backfill(and sand) to have against a basement wall.
Now 'IF' there are FLOODING conditions Soily, then sure, some water will be present in the gravel but what you dont understand is there will be water present throughout the rest of the exising soil along the basement walls and all around the house soooo, the other soil(clay-silt whatever) will be SATURATED. in all other areas around house,10-30'++ away from the house, along all walls, under the dang-floor and along the FOOTING too, not much will help when flooding occurs.Any wall or any part of 4 walls could be damaged/cracks occur/bowing...it could.And YOU think drain tiles are going to save a basement wall from bowing, or footings from cracking, are you kidding?
At leat most footings are twice as WIDE as a wall is thick. Its going to take alot more to mess up most footings compared to a wall. To REPEAT, sheesh, what don`t you get...have NEVER had one problem with ANY footing being undermined by backfilling w/peastone, never had one problem/occurrence of capillary movement, not one in nearly 3 decades. Go figure!
You keep thinking and we`ll keep waterproofing and proving your assumptions wrong....ok?
YOUR #2 states..."if water is present in gravel, it will lead to an INCREASE in hydrostatic pressure against the wall when compared to same amount of water in a clay soil" UNBELIEVABLE a self-proclaimed soils expert would say this!!! Have you been drinking?
Are YOU kidding me? Did you miss a couple classes, did you get a 'D' yet still passed?
DUH!!! 2nd para..." Coarse-grained, well-drained soils like sand and gravel apply the LEAST lateral load, while fine silts and CLAYS, especially if SATURATED, apply more load"
I dont need them to tell me but they are correct Soily pants! READ it Mr Soil & water & plant Degree, then..read it again
4th para..."the water pressure against a basement wall WHEN the SOIL (hello-SOIL!) is thoroughly soaked is called hydrostatic pressure.It can force moisture through pores inthe basement wall and even crack or buckle a wall itself. Here again, proper drainage is the remedy"
It is the SOIL that becomes SATURATED right-slap against the basement wall, the saturated- expanded-SOIL is PUSHING against the wall, it can FORCE moisture THROUGH the dang wall...proper DRAINAGE/the BEST draiange to have--ALONG--AGAINST a basment wall is GRAVEL, sand! NOT YOUR statement of clay!!! Wrong again.
Soily.....KEEP reading, learn something and be man enough to say it is YOU who is wrong here... Para 6... "how fast the soil pressure builds as depth increases DEPENDS on the TYPE of SOIl"..... Hello????
.."Of the major soil types, garvel and sand impose the smallest loads (sats smallest if ya missed) EVEN WHEN WET, because friction between the particles keeps the soil somewhat stable. Silts, with their smaller particles are more fluid when soaked and exert about 50% MORE PRESSURE than sands. CLAYS get soft when moist, can flow when saturated, and may apply 3 times the pressure of sand or gravel"
Do YOU understand Soily?
Read.. -Compaction too, you need to understand the ENTIRE picture.. "After compaction, SOIL is under a COMPRESSION like a spring and....CONTINUES to PUSH against the foundation...." This is what YOU rather backfill with huh? A small job YOU`D put the same shtt back in, thats a mistake
.."In practice, sand and gravels densify or compact more readily than silts or CLAYS, creating less of this springlike force-- one more good reason to use them for backfilling"
Soily....whats up?
Read --BASEMENT WALLS/RESOLUTION, read whatever ya like but see what THEY TRY and tell a Know it all like YOU what is the MOST SUCCESSFUL REPAIR METHOD....what do THEY say is BEST to BACKFILL with
I know from my business that it is like beating your head into a brick wall sometimes, but the people you do help, seems to make it all worth while !!! At least it does for me.
upon FLOODING, unfortunately there isnt alot some can do. Poor guy put sandbags around house `n water still poured in...get yer stuff in basement up-off the floor
Look LWP, why not approach this like the professional you claim to be.
Think of me as a homeowner who has a house with a foundation. There is no drainage (surface or subsurface) and the foundation is backfilled with an expansive soil. I have a crack and I am considering using your approach (localized crack fix, no need for drainage, gravel backfill), but I have these concerns.
Now as a professional are you going to address my concerns in an intelligent, rational manner or not?
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Aren`t the builders a good chunk of the problem when it comes to waterproofing/backfilling...sure seems so
Yup, you bet they are, and you know why, because they ARE NOT following the recommendations in that manual and cut corners in order to increase their profit margin. But then if they did do it right you would probably be out of a job.
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Now 'IF' there are FLOODING conditions
There does not in any way, shape, or form have to be flooding conditions in my example situation. Simply dump a bunch of water into your ditch, say FROM A ROOF DRAIN, and see what happens. Water will back up, plain and simple. This is why subsurface drain systems work, or perhaps in your 30 years of experience you haven't figured this out. Water moves quickly though the gravel, hits a confining layer of soil and backs up, moving into the drainpipe.
How do YOU think drain pipes work with holes on only one side, and those holes facing down?
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DUH!!! 2nd para..." Coarse-grained, well-drained soils like sand and gravel apply the LEAST lateral load, while fine silts and CLAYS, especially if SATURATED, apply more load"
I dont need them to tell me but they are correct Soily pants! READ it Mr Soil & water & plant Degree, then..read it again
Let's get one thing very clear here, Bob is speaking in very simple and general terms so the layman can understand what he is talking about.
I said I didn't expect you to understand the science, and yet you STILL manage to COMPLETELY take his statements out of context. I would expect at the very least you could understand Bob's layman approach on a VERY complex subject.
Come on man, what part of SATURATED do you not understand? Do you even have a high school education?
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the water pressure against a basement wall WHEN the SOIL (hello-SOIL!) is thoroughly soaked is called hydrostatic pressure.
And once again your inability to understand what, "thoroughly soaked" or SATURATED means.
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"After compaction, SOIL is under a COMPRESSION like a spring and....CONTINUES to PUSH against the foundation...." This is what YOU rather backfill with huh? A small job YOU`D put the same shtt back in, thats a mistake
And that is why I would be concerned about differential forces on the foundation BECAUSE of your localized backfill. I'm not going to pretend I am a mechanical engineer, but it would seem logical to assume that introducing a fairly large differential force on the foundation near the VERY AREA that has already cracked is begging for it to fail again. It would also seem this would be more of a concern if that crack was caused by structural defects or improper design.
Perhaps a mechanical engineer could verify with references for those of us who are actually interested in learning something new.
For your fairfax link, ONCE AGAIN, you take a little small portion of the information they are providing and use to support your arguments, but then turn around and make statements that TOTALLY CONTRADICT what your sources recommend. Also note how their recommendations are in line with the recommendations from the Builder's Foundation Handbook.
And finally, the most convincing evidence of your ignorance: where does it state in any of your references that backfilling at only a LOCALIZED section of a foundation if recommended?
Go on man, SHOW ME WHERE IT STATES THAT IN ANY OF YOUR SOURCES!
In fact, EVERY SINGLE ONE of your references states the IMPORTANCE of both surface and subsurface drainage, yet you CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN it is not important.
I'm not going to keep going over what is happening here. The only thing you have accomplished here was to prove my point and demonstrate exactly what I have been saying all along. You are attempting to speak knowledgeably on subjects you have no understanding of, and are failing miserably.
If you want to try to understand some of the science behind what is going on here are some links, but I expect you won't get past the first paragraph in the first link, and you certainly won't understand what is being discussed given your so called "expert" analysis of Bob's article.
Beyond your display of complete ignorance, you also misrepresent most all your sources and take their statements completely out of context. This is why I suggested that before you QUOTE someone you better make sure you actually understand what they are saying. Did you heed my warning, HECK NO!
You reference sources to back your inaccurate statements and beliefs, not even realizing that your sources in fact, say something quite different. I don't think Bob or Tim would be happy with you misrepresenting their statements. Perhaps you should post your ignorant bs on Bob's or Tim's site and see how far that gets you.
95% of the people who visit this forum:
1) Just read and don't post. 2) Take your statements and recommendations at face value because you claim to be an expert.
This is why I have a problem with some of your statements and recommendations, and the ONLY reason why I even posted to this forum thread in the first place. Your using inaccurate statements and bad recommendations to PROMOTE your method of waterproofing. How are you not guilty of the same deception that you condemn the inside companies for?
BTW, I graduated top of my class in my department.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: KYO,
i am done done done done done...your on your own.....comes a time when enough is enough, have tried to help, did so KNOWING how many HOMEONWERS HAVE already been screwed and...how many-MORE WILL get lied to/cheated etc out of THOUSANDS...thousand of dollars times thousands of homeowners...you add it up.
Itll be quite interesting when many more get MOLD, efflorescence, cracks-WIDENING, wall bowing in etc etc etc etc..after having these inside systems installed, couple/fews years go by...more problems--more complaints....shtt, YOU CANT SEE/READ the TONS of cust-complaints many inside cos have ALREADY?
You want recommendations from those who have NEVER done one job go right ahead, you want to believe the crap from inside co`s then call them, they cant WAIT to bs YOU outta THOUSANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Done ALL one can....with VERY LITTLE APPRECIATION and, that in itself pizzes me off..GOODNIGHT IRENE
Don't let one Moron lead you on... You are feeding right into what he wants... an argument. It is obvious that he is an "Expert". An expert at leading people to argue about some BS he has dug up.. just like anything, you can find people to support and believe in anything.. After all, there are people tha
this ANONYMOUS self-proclaimed soils expert, who first came on this thread and shht on me and said he is a landscaper-NOT a basement waterproofing expert, a landscaper who 'says' he has a degree in soil & water science,OH...and a minor in plant-biology but apparently no hands on bsmt waterproofing experience which, is what THIS-thread is about...'Basement Waterproofing'. 