Phil, you can call if ya like...maybe get an Exp`d-honest plumber over, pick his brain on drains or ask someone in Bldg dept to come over when they can, show them/ask them what they`ve seen in OTHER homes around ya,other ares in neighborhood, maybe someone there has seen same drain(s)/situation
All i can try to do is inform some of the problems we repeatedly see, repaired-SOLVED and how much etc so, my answers to MOST (NOT all) peoples problems are basically the same as the final REULTS of they`re leaky bsmts should speak loud `n clear....30 yrs.
Pic 3,4 HO has poured basement walls. Gaps-openings under side door sill.Builder/subs sometimes do crap job under these sills when house was built. Before last driveway was put in they shoulda repaired/waterproofed this area and any bricks,mortar joints that will be below driveway.HO has water stains UP high on poured wall underneath steps to bsmt
Yeah, a few HO will get lucky when they attempt things like caulking/tarring etc along drive `n house...may last awhile,most don`t and again, wouldn`t sell house that leaks or, at least disclose.
Pics 5,6 HO gets water inside bsmt coming out chimney chute door and UP high on poured wall,above the chute door, ABOVE ground level.
Pics 9-11 See water stains UP HIGH? At least 'part' of problem where water is first-entering is through exterior bricks and mortar joints and other possible openings. Sometimes its HO`s only problem. Sometimes there will be a 2 part problem, above ground(tuckpointing or X course tear down etc) AND crack(s) on exterior chimney walls below ground.
-Next house, a fixer upper,block walls Turns out there more that needs to be done than buyer thought, was told by friends,inspector.
19 upside down thx CVS. Seller put tar-mastic in inside...real nice.Didn`t/doesn`t solve a thing but adds some color to basement
20-23 cracks...this is where most of the water that gets on bsmt floor...FIRST enters They have some ABOVE ground openings too. It enters in through cracks, stays inside holllow block-cores as it drops through lower courses and eventually comes out onto floor. It can-could enter,be seen inside coming through 1st or 2nd course of block(s) up off floor.Not too often its seen up high, it can,just not all that often.
24 Some goof put tar/mastic/asphalt on blocks above grade up to siding. Ok, whatever ya want.
25 more exterior cracks, they extend DOWN, below driveway and usually go down to/near footing. patching above drive cracks etc needs to be done but so too does waterproofing below grade/drive cracks.
26 pic not so good but, one area where caulk has separated. On a wind blown rain outta that direction, water could enter house/basement.
INSIDE DRAIN TILE systems, many have-still use plastic perforated drain tile under basement floor,along perimeter...and tell HO`s that any-all water enters INTO the tile and is directed to sump....really? Not quite Mister.
See pic`s 2,3 this is what many have used. It`s what many HO`s have under bsmt floor and quite a few Ho`s have on exterior,along footing....thats another story.
Anyway, they`ll tell people all water is collected by/into drain tile and directed to sump...no,so sorry.
LOOK at the drain tile, it is perforated,slotted all the way AROUND. Yes, they want water to get into pipe so it doesn`t accumulate under floor and again, this is what many tell HO`s.
So yes, water can/will get into the perforated pipe and it`ll also come-back-out,under floor...along entire lil trench they opened up...sure it does!
NO WAY most-all water stays inside this drain tile under your bsmt floors.
As for builders/their sub-contractors who use this cheap tile outside, along footigs on new/newer homes, not good either.Ya see what can-could happen to it when subjected to backfill weight.
Manufacturer says...'We do not recommend the use of flex. plastic perforated drain tile at depths greater than 1.2 meters as it may collapse by weight of backfill'.
Well, WHY then have quite a few builders/subs use this and still use it? Many footings are 6-7+ deep...quite a bit deeper and subjected to MORE weight yet they use it and apparently city okays it...hmmm.
The reason they use it is that its better for...THEM, not for you,the homeowner.
Plastic perf drain tile is alot ligher,thinner and cheaper. Its quicker for them to use it/place it around footings, again,better for THEM.
Clay and pvc are thicker,alot heavier and will withstand underground weight,pressures much better,longer...but it costs MORE and takes longer to place along footings
Point for tiles is to TRY `n redirect 'SOME' subsurface water that gets down along footings,away.
Well, gotta have openings in tile to direct SOME water away,any tile gotta have openings to let some water GET IN.
SO then, its possible for ANY underground tile w/openings to become clogged to some degree, roots or other crap can-could get in there. A sock? lolol Nope! Sock isn`t going to keep ROOTS outta there,roots will make their way through sock cuz they seek water. Won`t keep all sediment outta tile either, believe what ya like,we`ve seen what we`ve seen right up close over `n over.
Some keep thinking,believing somehow magically most-all water is directed away from house, from entire depth of basement walls,by use of perforated drain tile or any drain tile that need some openings for water to initially get in.For dwnspt extensions its best to use tile w/NO perforations but that still won`t keep all water away from entire depth of bsmt walls,good luck w/that.
Hang in there n this one. I`m SICK and tired of 'some', whether a HO or INSIDE Co or some dang Hm city inspector or Hm imp radio host bllhh`g people err somehow assuming THEY have all the answer/remedies, best advice for HO`s.
Homeowner in in metro Det calls has water in bsmt, wants estimates/help. Okay, no freaking problem.
Go over there and withing 5 minutes or so, SEE/KNOW he has MULTIPLE problems. He has 6 vertical cracks in bsmt walls and, has...sheesh..about 8-12 cracks in bsmt floor.
Also obvious he has water coming in through 2 bsmt windows AND 'other' above ground openings..plus condensation problem upstairs around 1st floor windows.
house built in early 90`s...dumb chtt builder/subcontractor did put a sump pump in and pit BUT....only had 1 lateral drain pipe through side of pit and, it was WAAAAY too low.yeah yeah, heads up on possibility of sewer gases,may have to adjust water level
they shoulda cut/placed 2 other lateral,under-the-floor-drain tiles leading to PIT.Dunno why city okay this crap either.actually i do, but will leave it alone for now.
Ok so, inform this HO he has several prob`s...BUT the FIRST thing he needs to do...SHOULD do is, cut/drill/create MORE openins in side of PIT, UP HIGHER near concrete floor level to allow the stuupid water under floor to drain into pit.Finally,after buncha dumbchtt,calls he made to Inside Co`s who told him he needed $10,000-15,000 inside system, he goes ahead drill holes in sides of sump pit himself,hurray...go for you.
Now, he had ALOT of water all over bsmt floor when my azz got there, i could not honestly tell him where MOST of water was coming from, except it 'appeared' alot of it was due to water not getting into pit due to dumbchtt builder/sub incompetence when sump `n pit initially put in.
Gonna make this shorter...lol, he finally LISTENS and drills holes in sides of PIT and....watr STREAMS out from just-under-the bsmt-floor and into/over pit.90%+ of ALL water(alot) that was on his floor subsided within 1 hour, right after he drilled holes....duh!
LOTSA snow meltng here,as has been case last 1-2 weeks,thats when alot of water accumulated on his floor.As snow continues to melt, NO water on floor and telling ya, he had alot.
Back to lateral tile that empited into pit. It was TOO LOW, the water UP higher...JUST under the bsmt floor wasn`t...couldn`t get into PIT. Thus, it built up,accumulated and came UP through the many floor cracks.
HO had water level in pit ABOVE the lateral drain tile, wasn`t getting OUT! Backs UP!!!!
Sump was older,not working for chtt so, he also needed new sump so water level would be BELOW the lateral tile!
Chht, i`ll end it here but, dang it, yet another HO was ALMOST got !@#$%!@ outta THOUSANDS, all he need for 'biggest' water problem was an honest/exp`d person to show him,talk him through probabilities, he created the holes himself and WATCHED the result.
Yeah, he still has other cracks,problems but this was the one that allowed most of the water on floor. Cost for new sump and other adjustment....$250!
What I and plumber do NOT appreciate is, this HO talked chtt 'during' his headache,saying we aren`t experts lolololololol
24 hours later...its ALL a differnet story.Watch what ya say please, we are trying to freaking help YOU people, dang it!
Don`t get in abig dang hurry, most have had problems for months-YEARS and then, get in big hurry upon their convenience.
Look, one more time,YOU wanna get !@#$#$ then call NEVER Dry!!! You want an EXPERT then call OTHERS 'some' others HERE have recommended or, go ahead and call my azz, thats right, i`m gonna state it,EXPERT at how/where water gets into homes/basements,dam right!!!. You may not like me, i don`t give a crap whether ya like me or not You won`t find anyone better, ya may find some 'equals', NONE better or more honest.
First off I would like to give you a big thank you as I have been reading your posts on this board for about 2 months now. It has allowed me to make an educated decision on how to waterproof my basement which has bowed walls ans a substantial amount of water seeping in.
Even though the waterproofing company I am choosing has included in their bid a few things I didnt agree with or wanted changed, they have been more than willing to change those things. I am sure they were surprised that I knew a little more than most HO's. Of course thanks to you.
Well the final thing I am having a hard time with is with the perforated pipe for the footing. They wanted to put down the plastic corrugated stuff and I will not let them. They seemed entirely unexperienced and clueless when I brought up clay pipes. I am going to insist they use a very Rigid PVC pipe for the preforated section as it is going to have to be buried 10 feet down to reach my footing.
What spec pipe should I be looking for? I have no idea what to look for with all the ratings and numbers on the pipe. Could you help me with that so I can insure I dont get sold on the wrong pipe and have an issue with it caving in.
Thanks in advance, and thanks for everything!
Posts: 5 | Location: Little Rock, AR | Registered: 07 March 2008
if they are going to change some/all tiles outside then some sort of pvc will have to do, unless you already have clay tiles outside(older home). Clay tiles,all-most 'might' be fine so no reason to change em, not imo.If ya have new/newer home then there may be black plastic perf tile down there
whats most important is how they`re digging out the wall(s),how they`re waterproofing it(with what) and how they`ll be backfilling it, with what.
while the tile may help divert 'some' water its not the most important factor,not imo,others will certainly disagree...nothing new.
here`s another inside method, using even lighter fill around tile....see bag? lol ya can`t fill `n carry pea stone in a plastic bag like this. IMO, some don`t like carrying buckets of p`stone/heavier into basement so now they`re coming up w/new lighter means of `fill,easier for THEM..whatever!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enCONWmCevM
questions to these types... did ya correctly diagnose where/how water is first-entering this `n other-homeowners basements or,ya just sell them the only thing- system you do?
Cuz yet again, if water is entering through the exterior,below and/or above ground then it needed to be stopped on the outside,wherever the cracks/other openings are.Systems like these should-might-prolly keep water off the FLOOR where they work(18" or so).. but doesn`t stop/prevent it from where it can first enter outside.This is water-diverting.
And ya see the black plastic tile? Can`t see/tell whether its solid or perforated. If its solid then water won`t get into it. If it`s perforated some water will get into it and will come back out,unless lol, it was solid and they cut-slits on side or top.
On right side 'about video'...they say/claim... among other things...''safe,clean,healthy,No moisture,no mold.
This isn`t quite right now is it. Even IF NO water was entering from outside,through wall or above ground openings there WILL be X-amount of MOISTURE.
And again...IF..homeowners problem was some sort of back-up under floor then first thing to do/try is.. s n a k e storm trap clean-out and/or, IF they already have a sump pump, check the pump...and IF they have a PIT then s n a k e the tile(s) that empty into pit.
As in my last post, some folks could also have a pit that only has 1 lateral tile that empties into it...again, you can s n a k e it BUT, if its too low down in the pit then,create some openings in SIDES of pit...up higher,right under bsmt floor level!! Should have had 1-2 more tiles attached/fed into sides of pit,up higher.
To not know or not inform all homeowners of these things to try FIRST IMO, is negligent,is incompetent...thats right.If your a dang expert and actually give a chtt about each homeowner you`ll know this and you`ll try `n explain this to them.But every now & then ya get a dipstick HO who suddenly gets in a big dang hurry. Too bad for them, they`ll most likely be coughing up lots of cash when they didn`t need to.
Tired of a few HO`s who get 10 est`s, all from inside co`s except my azz, maybe one other exterior co and Ho`s think to themselves, 'ummm,well,we had 9 companies say we need an inside system and then had one lone guy say we only need XYZ,or only Z. How can it be possible for one guy to be right and all 9 others be wrong..lone guy is wrong-prolly crazy lets go with lowest inside bid'.Well, i may a tad 'crazy' but NOT when it comes this dang subject.
Lustig says.. 'if water has gotten into the block the wall has to be drained.....etc etc'...and says...'i install an interior drain system under the conc.slab....water is continiuously drained..'
Haege says he had been getting e-mails from EXT-waterproofers claiming that fixing the problem from the outside is better because it maintains the integrity of the wall.
Lustig says 'there are some occasions when you have to work from outside. He says he tries to AVOID it because EXT Waterproofing requires trenching around building,it TEARS UP THE YARD and shrubbery and is QUITE OFTEN a good deal MORE EXPENSIVE than an interior drain system'
'Work from inside because we can give the homeowner a BETTER,faster job'.......'EXT Waterpf`g is an antiquated technology(old fashioned-obsolete) lolol
Haege personal view...wits a homeowner choice' and....call nawsrc'
Hey dang it, where is your KNOWLEDGE on lateral soil pressure,roots and other possibly exterior pressures which cause cracks,leaks,bowed wall etc? WHAT? LEAVE the CAUSE on exterior? lol And, its okay to allow water continually into blocks? Is this what you people are saying??? To allow further detrioration of bsmt wall? To continue to allow water in,insects etc in??
This is what you recommend to readers/public? Incompetent,negligent! You don`t GET it, don`t understand everything you need to understand to...duh, HELP inform HO`s of ALL factors,exisiting problems,potential problems in coming months-years!
Listen...do NOT make FALSE statements-claims,disparaging public remarks about EXTERIOR waterproofing,EXT contractors, you people are freakin WRONG! You ONLY-RATHER wnat to install yer inside system cuz its better for YOU,NOT the HO!!
"Tears up yard,good deal MORE expensive"??? From where i sit,how we work, these, and other statements are FALSE....TIRED of the chtt
Folks,believe WHO ya`s like...Richard,H Care,others and myself have TRIED to inform ya`s of most things to look for,not bs ya`s into only-inside water-diversions.I`m taking a lil break from this board,will post pic`s when i get `em and occasional story,gl.
Well I had no previous tiles on the exterior of my house. There was no clay previously there. I will be adding the PVC and starting fresh.
I didnt even let any waterproofer's mention doing anything inside. I have a less than acceptable grade on the outside, two huge oak tree's within 15 feet of the house, 8/8/16 block walls, and a slight bow in those walls. When it rains its pretty easy to see where the water is coming from. I am pretty sure the exterior has never been waterproofed.
After reading all of your posts on here I knew that was the only option.
I am also having them dig below the footing as I want at least 20" of gravel under the pipe as well. I dont to take any chances of soil making its way to the pipe over time. I figure if they are digging I would rather pay for a little more digging than having them dig up the entire thing in 10 years.
They plan on using HLM 5000 to waterproof the exterior which I have read good reviews on. Do you have an opinion on that product?
Also finally, you sent me that link to the pipe. Is that the schedule (schedule 40) I need for 10 ft down burial? Is there anywhere that sells it already perforated? Actually if you can just tell me what rating/schedule to look for I can call and hunt around for it. I just need to know what ratings to ask for. Remember its going to be buried 10' down..
Posts: 5 | Location: Little Rock, AR | Registered: 07 March 2008
Please do NOT have them dig lower than the footing!!! You will risk undermining the footings, and make more trouble tha you'll save.
As far as I know, perforated PVC pipe is available with just perforations on one half, and that half goes up in the trench.
One reason for your wall bowing is that it may be not thick enough. Eight-inch block walls are limited to retaining about five feet of earth, measured from the basement floor to finished grade at the wall outside. If the wall is retaining any more earth than that, it should have been 10 or 12 inches thick. If your footings are truly 10 feet down, then the wall thickness is insufficient at least on the side that's 10 feet, and you should give serious thought to doing something to strengthen the walls.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2572 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
Then 5.3 Precautionary Measures.... -minimize cracking of bsmt floor -seal bsmt floor/foundation wall crack -seal around all penetrations of walls and floors -use SOLID course at top and bottom of concrete block walls
not just solid course but also the JOINTS BETWEEN them,on the TOP TOP TOP need to be 'TOOLED'...fully-mortared, no gap or space.
So installing INSIDE water-diverting Systems 'create' MORE OPENINGS, from drilling HOLES in lower blocks and/or leaving a GAP-SPACE OPEN along the cold joint,floor-wall joint....sure they do.
And they`ll usually install a sump and pit so, better have air-tight pit cover.
And sometimes when they J-hammer,bust out that 12-24" inside perimeter of concrete, it could cause crack(s) in other parts of bsmt floor or, existing cracks in bsmt floor to WIDEN...oh yes it could.
some of you people who have,may get water backfing up under your basement floor will need to snake either the storm trap clean out and/or the lateral tile that empties into your PIT, if you have one.
if you have a sump and PIT,you may only have one(1) tile that empties into the PIT and it may be 12"-24" down in pit.
sometimes these PITS do NOT have enough cut-outs in SIDES of pit-WALL up higher in side so, sometimes when ya have water backing up through FLOOR cracks or other openings in floor on long-heavy rains or spring thaws, this build up of water has NOWHERE TA GO! IT can`t get into some PITS, can`t get into SIDES of some pits.
This water is right UNDER the bsmt floor, can`t get down-soak through some soils fast enough so can quickly back up,rise up.
Ya need to create/drill holes UP HIGHER in sides of pit wall,just UNDER thickness on concrete floor to allow this accumulation, build up of water to...get in, have somewhere to go rather than enter UP through floor cracks etc.
If you have thin floor it may not help much, floor too thin, thats part of your problem in first place, not your fault,not mine either.
Damonboost. Use sdr 35 4" perforated pipe. This pipe is rated at 2200 pounds crushproof. I agree with Richard, don't dig below the footer, however the holes must always face down. Cleanouts should be installed so you have access to snaking or jetting the footer tiles.The elastomeric is good, but are they repairing cracks and openings first? What are they using to protect the coating during backfill? Dimpled drainage mats work better than sheet visquine, because it will not trap moisture, and is less likely to tear. What are they back filling with, and how high are they bringing up the fill? I might hesitate if I were you to be using a company that wants to use the corrugated plastic at that depth, or for that matter use it at all. It would also worry me that they would not warn you of the problems associated with starting 20" lower than the footer. Good Luck
Originally posted by wtrprfr1: I think that is where things get confusing in this forum. Things are different in different areas. I know for instance in Wisconsin and now I know appararantly in Mich. interior tiles are the norm. That is not the case in Northeast Ohio. Even the majority of the new homes being built here are not being built with interior drains, Only exterior footer tiles. Now I have been told but do not know for sure that in the Southern and middle part of the state most new homes do have interior tiles.
Mr Steve,
This guy is friend of yours, right? i mean, your in HIS 'movie'.
And he says the super dry INSIDE-system is this,that and everything else.Puts 'super-paneling' up agst inside wall, not have to paint again huh? Please don`t try `n bs my old az
Mold specialist? well, if you continue to allow water,moisture in through exterior cracks ,damp walls etc then this is hardly helping any mold situation,gimmie a break will ya`s.
he used to own/run Best Waterproofing for about 5 yrs, went out of business and apparently changed name
he says several things but sure seems he most enjoys the putting in inside system...yup yup. information is 'secret,privileged'? what?
just because some company does a couple exterior jobs a year (maybe) and does the rest on inside doesn`t mean he/others are-have correctly diagnosed the actual water-entry problem, as question about which method is better,inside or out.... he says neither, no one is right.i say blchttt
yeah yeah, define each problem individually...other than flooding or leaky plumber fixture, MOST people problems,where water first enters is from outside so, the real answer to question IS OUTSIDE is best for most.
Of course anyone who most often-only does inside systems ANSWER to which method is better will be anything other than exterior right...duh.
some may need a sump `n pit if they live on a sprong,or in a valley...does NOT mean they need any company to put in inside system,nonsense.
not trying to intenionally dump on anyone but lets get all this crap-talk outta the way otherwise, back up each and every statement,substantiate it.
again, what most will get outta reading this is that his inside system is best and i totally disagree
and WHERE is this so-called BOOK of his? Plz let me know, i`d like a copy to thoroughly read and enjoy
Originally posted by wtrprfr1: Damonboost. Use sdr 35 4" perforated pipe. This pipe is rated at 2200 pounds crushproof. I agree with Richard, don't dig below the footer, however the holes must always face down. Cleanouts should be installed so you have access to snaking or jetting the footer tiles.The elastomeric is good, but are they repairing cracks and openings first? What are they using to protect the coating during backfill? Dimpled drainage mats work better than sheet visquine, because it will not trap moisture, and is less likely to tear. What are they back filling with, and how high are they bringing up the fill? I might hesitate if I were you to be using a company that wants to use the corrugated plastic at that depth, or for that matter use it at all. It would also worry me that they would not warn you of the problems associated with starting 20" lower than the footer. Good Luck
if any tile has holes down then alot of the water that gets into the tiles is gonna come out, its 'almost' like why bother.Putting tile in and having somewhere for water to go is one thing but allowing it/alot of it comes come back out kinda defeats purpose
thats why ive said what i have exterior tiles and, its not why most people get water in basement anyways-most get water in through cracks etc in walls,above walls. Then some get water on floor due to back ups so, snake and/or install those sumps `n pits better for god sake
some water that makes its way through 5,6,7'+ of soil to tiles, will get into tiles,sure. some water simply soaks into the soil in surrounding areas and some water goes under the tile,into soil.some gets soaked up by roots, some goes through t-tile or through the opening in footing where T is and winds up underneath bsmt floor. No mystery here.Too many put too much emphasis on exterior tile and NOT much if any on where the chtt water is ACTUALLY entering
Then we have those who say dimpled membranes are better, better for what? Visqueen will actually adhere to stupid asphalt if put on right, membrane won`t. And dimpled membrane doesn`t lessen hydrostatic lateral soil pressure or roots, come on! Dimpled membranes do, have trapped water between the bsmt walla nd the membrane, have seen it over `n over on new-newer homes
can we quit confusing people and quit with the many false claims,huh? You wanna use a dimpled or whatever membrane go ahead but that is NOT whats most important. What one DIRECTLY applies to bsmt wall is and with what and how trench is backfilled.
And Damon, if any homeowner wanted us to do something different,change way we waterproof/backfill i will tell each and every one of them, no way jose,go ahead `n find someone else. No way a homeowner or inspector or engineer etc calls any shots on our jobs.Don`t get me wrong, good of you to do homework `n call them out on things but if they already didn`t/don`t know some of these facts, i`d have said SEE YA!
If the HO or inspector, engineer is going to/would take FULL RESPONSIBILITY of job, on GUARANTEE then, no freakin problem, we`ll do what you-they like
lwp. Wow! You wouldn't pass one pre fill inspection in Ohio placing the holes up. This is where differences occur, geographically. Don't want to argue with you, happen to respect your position/mission, and happen to agree with you most of the time. However in Ohio, probably because of the heavy clay content, footer tiles are critical. Water collects at the lowest point and rises. The tiles are lower than the floor and enters the perforations and the solid top of the pipe moves the water. As far as some of the different products available, sometimes a new product or innovation is actually an improvement over old methods. So maybe to stop the confusion, we should make a point to let people know that what happens in Michigan may be different than what happens in Ohio, or New York.
You won`t find anyone better, ya may find some 'equals', NONE better or more honest.