After reading many posts, it is clear to me that Licensed Waterproofer knows his stuff!! That said , here is my problem and I would appreciate any insights you many have.

I have had my basement waterproofed the right way. It was a complete dig down to footer tile, walls cleaned, ironite cement applied, a flexible rubber like black sealer, a dimpled membrande hung around entire dig against the foundation walls and finally backfilled with 57 washed gravel. Also note placement of drain tile: I have a footer which is composed of two layers of bricks (house is brick veneer pained white and foundtion walls are clay tile...house built 1927), with clay tiles foundation walls starting on top of the brick footer. The waterproofer placed the PVC drain tiles holes down and with the top of drain tile even with the bottom of bottom brick footer.

So all seems to have been done properly outside but I continue to have water issues. Water not that bad now during the low humidity winter, but in spring and summer I am having moisture all along the foundation walls to the same degree as before the waterproofing job. Contractor thinks it is just ambient humidity, but I don't think so given that problem was as bad this past summer as prior to his waterproofing job. He tried putting a french drain in one corner and tying into the storm drain line under basement floor but this did not work. There is definitely flow out to street as system has been dye tested and is clear.

At this point, we are considering installing an inside system...ie french drain along inside walls, panels on walls and a couple of sump pumps. Not sure this is best course or even if it will solve my problem. On heavy rain I even got a puddle which was in middle of basement 15ft away from one wall and 8ft from the other. Clearly water is under slab and coming up...but why isn't the system working at the footer tiles?? Also, could water be wicking up through the brick footer, into hollow clay tile foundation walls and finally out onto the slab??

This is a mystery and while my waterproofer has been working with me he does not have a good idea why this may be happening. I have a walkout basement, thus house sits above street level on a hill, but then slopes down so that back of house where walk out basement is is only 4ft below grade. Never had water issue on that side of house. About 50ft from back of my house is a golf course which is at least 8ft below my basement. That would lead me to believe that it is not a water table issue.

Any ideas would greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance!!

em,

thats why its of most importance to FIRST 'define' what/where the problem(s) is before spending ANY money.

to waterproof the bsmt walls when the problem is say, a blockage under the floor...maybe in the lateral line...will NOT solve THAT problem, obviously.

if there is a crack(s) in a basement wall, say a block wall, then...hiring a company to put in a sump(s) and inside drain tile or baseboard system won`t stop/prevent THAT problem.

if the problem is say, ABOVE ground like open mortar joints and/or water entering through-around basement windows then inside systems and waterproofing the walls won`t solve that problem...lol

quite a few homeowners are in a BIG Rush when they get water on the floor...they want it solved....Yesterday! ....lol, most understand they want it fixed quickly BUT, to hurry `n rush and hire a company WITHOUT truly defining what the problem isn`t any good either, right?

adding to that the fact that MANY in THIS business either....don`t give 2 craps as to correctly defining problem...they see a JOB and sell sell sell. Many will say/expalin anything to homeowner to get the job OR, they REALLY do NOT understand all the different ways/means water can enter, they are Not what they say they are....experts.

Ok....you say in spring `n summer ya still have 'moisture all along bsmt walls'.....right? Ok, moisture meaning.....dampness? Moisture meaning some amount of 'water'? And....ya say... 'along'...basement wall(s)..right? Ya mean where bottom of wall and floor meet? Only on floor? On parts of walls?

When you say contractor put in.....french drain.... some have different defintion of a french drain, lol, yeah. Ya mean he tore up part of bsmt floor on Inside?

and putting panels up against the Inside of bsmt walls doesn`t do a thing! Bs...all that does is HIDE any water/dampness/mold/efflorescence etc, i`m not kidding. If homeowner doesn`t SEE water/dampness etc then they THINK problem is solved, more bs.

and by the way.....it 'could' be partly a humidity problem

let me ask ya emt....do you SEE Any gaps/spaces between the edge of bsmt floor and bsmt wall(s)???

if so, these spaces can indeed allow Water-Vapor into basement, increasing the humidity, increasing chances of dampness/mold etc...yes indeed. It will also allow radon gas to enter...if present in soil under bsmt floor.

your right...some amount of water is just about always under everyones bsmt floor, to some degree. It`s when THAT water increases that it 'could' become a problem, a problem IF parts of bsmt floor where poured on the....thin side. Yup, if part/all of floor are 1-2" thick-thin then,any increase in water under a bsmt floor can surely wick through thin concrete causing damp spots etc on floor and cause an increase in humidity as well which can.....cause dampness in parts of basement...wall etc.

If Outside job was done correctly then it IS doing its job....is there water INSIDE the hollow-wall(s)??? If so....it IS going to CAUSE some/alot of dampness ON wall(s), especially near bottom of wall and bsmt floor!! ...needs to be let out IF inside.

quote:

The waterproofer placed the PVC drain tiles holes down and with the top of drain tile even with the bottom of bottom brick footer.

Oops. Excavation, no matter how little, should not be done below an imaginary line extending out and down from the bottom edge of the footing at a 45-degree angle. If the drain tiles are within this "forbidden zone", especially with a brick footing where the 80-year-old mortar may not be in the best of condition, the footing could settle or shift even slightly, opening up new cracks.

Also, checking the flow through the storm drsin with dye tells you only that water is getting through, but won't tell you if the pipe is cracked or partially blocked beneath the floor. I would not have recommended collecting water in footing drains outside the foundation walls and then piping it under the floor.

The use of a "dimpled" membrane also concerns me, because that sounds more like a drainage board than a waterproofing membrane. There are some boards that attempt to function as both, but the board is the easy part..the joints between the boards are still problems.

I concur with LicensedWaterproofer...the "cure" may have preceded the determination of the cause, in this case. And possibly, some small errors were made in the work done.

Wow, a frustrating situation for both you and the contractor. Both Richard and LW have gave you good advice. It even sounds like your waterproofer did a nice job. What I have found is clay tile foundations are a different from any other when it comes to humidity. I would even question weather you ever needed waterproofing. If you still have close to the same amount of dampness. Then is was just a humidity problem. Which can be solved with a good ventilation system. We have our own system, but I don’t think we service your area. You can look at our website for the AVS system. Then you can at least see how it works and do some more research to find out who in your area might have some thing similar. www.thebasementguys.com

Thanks for the input!! When I say moisture at base of clay tile wall I mean dampness....it is clearly wet to the eye and touch. There is no puddling but you can see the damp floor. After heavy rains, I even got a puddle which was about 10 feet IN from the edge of any wall...that lead me to think that could be water table rising. Indeed, after heavy rains the concrete floor gets "darker" in middle of basement floor...showing that it is getting wet, but not nearly as bad as along the sides near the walls.

I think the contractor who did my job did it properly. The dimpled membrane that I refer too was in addition to filling any and all cracks and treating wall with black rubber-like coating that was supposed to be flexible. This was not tar...applied by hand and relatively thickly...sure that this would have been enough. This contractor, as final step, draped house with the dimpled membrane can be seen here:

http://www.superseal.ca/dimpledmembrane.html

As to water problem, right now in winter things look pretty dry. there are "gaps" where till wall meets concrete slab that could let moisture in. Since these clay tiles are hollow )and run horizonally hollow...ie a mouse could run along perimeter of house via clay tiles!!) I do think that moisture some how is getting in them. What is strange about this job is that the moisture is EVERYWHERE...not just in one spot but along the entire job. Again, a problem in spring/summer humid season, not really now.

To check the system, we flooded the cleanout all the way in back of house. This ties in directly to footer drain tile. Even in summer, this could be left on for hours with no visible increase in dampness along any wall, including directly by the clean out. The layout of my system puts the storm drain going out through the INSIDE of the perimeter of my basement...ie it is under the slab of my basement floor. Contractor s***** this line from a window well that leads directly UNDER my slab floor. We flooded that line too and no visible increase in dampness anywhere. Also die tested and saw die at street. All this leads one to believe that footer drain tile system is clear and working.

Logically, the dampness along clay tile foundation wall must be coming from one of three places: ambient air, from below footer and up, or from outside and down. I am assuming that it is not coming through the wall below grade because I think contractor sealed exterior basement wall properly, thus no water from this area. I had been focusing on placement of footer tiles where top of perforated pipe was at best even with the BOTTOM of lower brick footer (remember I have only two layers of bricks acting as my footer.) After speaking with numerous local and online waterproofers, the consensus was split...some thought it was done properly while others thinking that pipe that low was incorrect and could be causing problem. But if we take an extreme case, and imagine that footer drain was placed 2 feet below bottom of footer, if we assume that it was backfilled properly than water will just sink two feet below bottom of footer...so should not rise enough to actually get wicked in via brick footers. Is this simple assumption wrong??

Examining outside sees no heavy tuckpointing gaps that need to be filled. Yes, some up 6 feet on brick veneer, a couple low, but nothing glaring. Wouldn't think that such small gaps could cause as much dampness as I am seeing. My gutters are clean and functioning and have almost no "splatter" that would indicate a leaking gutter somewhere.

If dampness coming from under brick footer, and or slab, would a sump pump or two help relieve pressure?? Dampness in only at perimeter except when there is a heavy rain...then some dampness in middle of floor, but not heavy. Slab floor is pitched two a low point along one wall where the old laundry area used to be....there is a drain in the floor here. Never have had any water visible in that drain....have flooded it too and it runs. Did get water come up through this area by a chimney stack after a heavy rain. This again lead me to think that water table is rising and coming through the slab due to pressure.

Lastly, the french drain that contractor installed in one problem area early in spring was just a trench dug on inside, perf pipe placed along footer in gravel, and then covered up again and covered with concrete. This did not work...dampness clearly coats the new concrete in spring/summer.

Sorry for long post...inside job scheduled for next week...which contractor is willing to do at almost no cost to me. Any further thoughts greatly appreciated!!!

em,

so ya know, hollow block walls etc can get quite a bit of water into cells/cores from small openings in mortar joints or any other direct openings ABOVE ground, from ground level up to the roof, yup.

any water that does get inside a wall will drop-through each course until it reaches the BOTTOM course where it will either stay inside the bottom course and/or come out onto floor where bottom of basement wall and basement floor meet.

is the bsmt floor tiled? have seen water that shows up on bsmt floor away from the bsmt wall, again...no water anywhere near bsmt wall, was due to a floor drain that backed up/needed to be sealed, concrete floor was tiled or had carpet over it, over the floor drain.

ill say again, any gaps `n spaces along the cold joint/cove really needs to be sealed.

I am the contractor that did the work on this job. The waterproofing is working perfectly. We recently experienced an extremely heavy all night soaker, and when I inquired as to the condition of the basement was told by homeowner all was well.

"As to water problem, right now in winter things look pretty dry."

This is an extremely deep basement with a terra cotta tile foundation. The homeowner refuses to run a dehumidifier or even ventilate the basement, it is completely sealed. The only time he notices dampness is when the humidity level is high even without rain. The homeowner has stated to me on numerous occasions that when he does run the dehumidifier the dampness dissapears. I believe without a shadow of doubt that this is a humidity problem only. You can not dry up a seepage problem with a low capacity dehumidifier like this homeowner has. Furthermore in an attempt to appease the homeowner I reluctantly installed a small section of drainage under the floor, knowing full well that unless the homeowner at least ventlates or runs a dehumidifier the dampness will return. I have been to the home on at least 7 occasions and have s***** every line, with this home having a combined sewer this includes the lateral line, and all is clear.
Humid air is heavier and will always fall to the lowest level. when a 10' deep basement is completely sealed and not dehumidified it will condensate humid air, especially on the clay tiles which are always the coolest place in the basement. I do not want to install an interior system with sump pumps, i did not want to install the small section that I did. It was done only at the customers insistence and to help prove my theory. As for the need originally, this home had numerous cracks and holes in the wall, which we repaired with hydraulic cement. We then used 3 layers of sealant including an elastomeric membrane and a dimpled drain mat. The original clay footer tile was 75 to a 100% blocked and was replaced by 4" schedule 35 perforated p.v.c.placed properly next to the footer. The downspout line was also replaced. We backfilled to within a foot of grade with washed gravel. HELP!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: wtrprfr1,

Well, there ARE two sides to every story, are there not? It isn't known what region this house is located in, but it seems that in such a situation, ventilation and dehumidification would be essential. Usually there is enough heating equipment in a basement to keep it relatively dry, but in the case of such a deep basement, that may not be enough.

Further comment without seeing the conditions is not possible. It must be left to readers of this thread to determine for themselves whose comments have the ring of truth to them.

Well now that everyone is at the party, let's talk apples!!

As a homeowner, all I want is a "relatively" dry basement. I am fully aware that humidity drops to the lowest level and will condense in a cool basement. This home is located just outside Cleveland where the soil is of high clay content and thus leads to many problems with wet basements.

My biggest issue is not with the contractor who has done the waterproofing as one would expect. My issue is that there is absolutely no difference in the amount of humidity now as compared to before the job. NONE! In the late fall winter, the basement would always dry up...as I suspect lower overall temperatures and humidity allow and moisture seeping in to evaporate into the air. In the spring and fall when temperatures rise and humidity is higher, the floor around the perimeter is once gain wet...as wet as it was before the waterproofing of exterior foundation walls. This is very similar to running a dehumidifier in summer and in colder temperatures. A dehumidifier will take out much less moisture at lower temperatures...this is a fact. That is what is going in my basement...at lower temperatures the cold surfaces of basement are condensing significantly less moisture and thus you don't see much dampness. I have no doubt that it will return in the spring/summer.

I have already commented on placement of footer drain tile. I now think that this is less likely to be cause. The fact that on heavy rains I did get a puddle that was 15 feet away from one wall and 8 feet from another leads me to believe that I have some sort of pressure issue under my slab that is not being helped by the outside footer drain tiles.

Having been in enough homes in the area I know that something is not right in my home given the level of humidity. Without proper ventilation and perhaps a dehumidifier I would expect perhaps a little bit dampness in SOME areas and a smell. MY problem is that I have dampness EVERYWHERE unless I run dehumidifier 24/7 in multiple areas during the summer. I could have done that prior to waterproofing to solve problems. As to original drain tiles being clogged that is not the case...they were original clay and NOT clogged. That is almost not relevant as walls were cracked in spots so doing waterproofing job did not hurt but at this point one can not say it was the main source of my problem.

As all can tell, I have a good relationship with the contractor who did the job. We both want to find a solution to this problem...so any input/help available here will be appreciated. I think inside job/sump pumps will help, but it may merely be a case of dealing with the symptom...ie water once it get INSIDE instead of trying to stop the water from getting in at all.

Thanks for the help again!

wtr,

if you need to show a homeowner that what was done to outside of bsmt walls, waterproofed them lol, was done correctly you prolly know all you have to do is run a hose against the outside of the wall(s) and, since ya backfilled w/peastone then if....there is any problem with way wall(s) was waterproofed it`ll leak pretty quick, say between 1 and 3 minutes.

yup, running a hose/water-test will show anyone IF there is a crack/other opening o=on outside of wall, below ground of course.

if NO water enters then there is NO problem with wall(s), other 'part' of problem/dampness etc is.....elsewhere. Yup, some homes/basements get water/moisture/dampness/mold etc from MORE than one place-area. For instance, fairly often there is a crack in one wall but ALSO, a basement window or open mortar joint(s) above that crack on the outside and BOTH need to be done.

And ya say there were cracks etc in wall(s) so waterproofing was needed.

like i say, IF there are openings/gaps along cold joint/cove they really should be sealed. They certainly could increase the humidity level in basement.

basement floor could have been poured on the 'thin'side and if so, thats Never good! Can`t blame a waterproofer for goofball builder laying a 2" bsmt floor.

is there a floor drain thats covered over w/tile-carpet where homeowner saw a puddle 10' or so away from wall?

and one other point: in summer/spring after any rain I see more dampness at foundation walls. I even broke a hole in one spot of basement and took a garden hose and left it running for 4 hours about 18 inches from the exterior wall above grade. By the next day the hole INSIDE MY BASEMENT was filled with water to just below the footer and there was dampness near the slab where it meets clay tile. this would seem to indicate that it was NOT just a humidity problem as a ran a dehumidifier in this room to make it bone dry prior to my test. There was no other dampness in that room except relatively close to where I had the garden hose outside. this would lead one to think that the brick footer is wicking up water from underneath which gets into clay tile and comes out at concrete slab.

Again, while some humidity is to be expected I can not believe that my problem is just a humidity problem. Also, depth of basement from slab to grade is about 100 inces.....

one more thought:

if it is just a humidity problem, how come I only get dampness near the clay tile foundation walls?? this dampness extends out onto slab and then taper off to dry slab. In the middle of slab floor I never get condensation unless there is a heavy rain....

lastly, I broke a hole in clay tile at slab in one room and it was all wet in there this past summer. whether dampness is coming from air and down or from footer and up is unknown at this point....

licensed waterproofer: there is no drain near where I got puddle this past summer (no where near a foundation wall). also, my slab which was poured in 1927 is indeed thin...probably no more than 2" in any one spot. I understand that humidity can get in via thin slap but still don't understand why it would only show up near the foundation walls when it condenses.....

quote:

I even broke a hole in one spot of basement and took a garden hose and left it running for 4 hours about 18 inches from the exterior wall above grade. By the next day the hole INSIDE MY BASEMENT was filled with water to just below the footer and there was dampness near the slab where it meets clay tile

Indicates the drain tile is working. Proper drainage systems keeps the water level below floor. 4 hours of running a hose outside combined with a hole through the floor on the inside, equalls humidity. The reason you notice it where you do is the result of the lowest level meeting the coolest surface. H. ur still one of my favorites.

ok...here are some pics of what basement looked like at end of last July. the puddle by boiler is what I am referring to above...this puddle is 15 ft from front of house and 8 feet from side. Notice how all dampness starts at wall and tapers off as you move in toward the middle of slab floor. Thoughts??? Questions??


http://marblearchrealty.com/water1.htm

I'm reporting a story on basement waterproofing. Would you be available for a phone interview this week? My e-mail address is shellyt@angieslist.com. thank you

After looking at the pictures, and not personally inspecting the foundation. My opinion ( Keep in mind all this is. Is opinion everyone on this site is trying to help, but its just opinions when we have not been in your basement to inspect it our self’s) Any way my opinion is that you need a inside drainage system and a ventilation system.