Hey licensed WaterProofR, I hear you talking about the exterior drainage systems all the time. I agree with you about using them as why would anyone want to fix the issue on the wrong side of the wall anyway. However I do have a question. After fixing the cracks, sealing the walls, installing the drainage pipe in the gravel etc. Where does the drainage pipe and water end up going to? Does the water simply gravitate to the gravel and seep into the ground? If so is there a formula for gauging the amount of gravel to use based on the height and conditions of the soil? It seems crazy to me that sealing the walls and delivering the water to the base of the foundation without draining it away from the building is nuts. The footing area is the most likely area to have the leaks. Also what is the fix for water coming up in the center of the floor? Will these exterior wall systems provide enough relief to prevent hydrostatic pressure which causes this? I assume that the drainage pipe is placed just below the top of the foundation but not below it. How deep does the gravel go below the pipe? or is just enough used to place the pipe down? I also assume that a sock is placed over the pipe as well as landscape cloth around the gravel.As a company that does professional mold removal and knows that proper water control is the only way to prevent it from coming back. I want to be sure that I am providing my clients the best solution to their problem.Thanks
Posts: 1115 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 31 January 2006
well, first thing is we are there/on job after defining what/where the problem/leak is and at same time whether or not the wall is bowed and if so, how much. Also know whether or not the homeowner has/has had any problems under-the-floor-have asked them whether or not they get water up through a crack in floor etc.
go over all possibilities with them before taking any job explaining to them all, for instance, IF...they have open mortar joints, openings around bsmt windows or if they get water up through the floor, NOT talking about the cold joint/cove, that these are 'other' problems they`ll need to solve as well as a crack(s) in bsmt wall/corner etc.
so every job we`ve done, its already been determined where/what the problem really is! Crack(s) in bsmt wall and, like i say, some have a 2-part problem, i can fix/repair the crack/leaky wall but they`ll need to caulk/replace a bsmt window and so on. Its why some of us honest exterior contractors have NO-zero customer complaints in 25-30+ years.
And as for the rain/water that percolates through peastone, depending on how much it rains, some will get into the drain tile that is along the footing which then is directed to the T-tile at/near middle of wall/footing and then goes under the floor and eventually out, usually to street.
may not be the best diagram but click this and scroll down and see 'image' on bottom left-- also see/read 'what is a basement back up?' ..'What casues it?'...and 'Are there OTHER Ways that water can ENTER my home?'
Ok, then some amount of rain/water will soak into the soil next to and below the peastone. Most 'footings' for basement walls are POURED!
You say/think the footing area is "most likely area to have leaks" and you are wrong, sorry thats the truth!
Now, IF YOU mean that YOU/homeowners "SEE" water ENTER ONTO the bsmt FLOOR at/along the cold joint/cove...where the btoom of bsmt wall and the bsmt floor meet, then yes, more than not see this BUT.........it is NOT where water/rain is FIRST-entering on/from the OUTSIDE! Do you understand???
And, its WHERE water enters on the Outside is where MOST homeowners problems/causes are, crack(s) and other openings in basement walls and above basement walls. Again, just because the homeowner sees water enter onto bsmt floor at/along cove does NOT mean the there is ANY problem with water entering the outside isolation joint/cove or, through the footing or under the footing, thats bllcht!
Seems 'crazy' and is 'nuts'? lolol You 'think' what you like, i know what i know due to 29 years of seeing just about every imaginable bsmt leak/seepage and, seeing all kinds of bsmt walls/footings from the Inside AND from the Outside. Add to that, NO problems,no leaks,no footing problems or wall problems down the road, no bsmt floor problems down the road, nothing...and NO customer complaints.
Ya know, some amount of water/rain is going to get Under a bsmt floor, under the footings regardless of what anyone does, regardless of how any house is built. One can raise the grade 5' high along their house, shtt lol, raise it up to the bedroom windows etc, but on Heavy LONG rains water will still percolate/travel Underground & underneath the rasied grade, underneath driveways, underneath those shallow french drains, underneath downspout-extensions etc. Water goes down AND sideways through soil so, when some folks bring up raising the grade they i guess they think all-water/rain will run off, will run away from the house.Their talking/thinking about 'surface water'.
That same surface water that was diverted 5-15' away will still go into the ground, into the soil and when it does it can percolate sideways as well as down, sideways towards the house/basement wall, under a driveway etc. And when its raining, not all the surafce water will be diverted, some that lands on the raised grade will still go... into the soil next to the house.
Rather have the soil under a footing with more water in it versus, having the soil underneath a footing with little water/moisture in it, especially through dry periods/little rain/droughts.
Soil that is allowed to dry up under a footing will 'contract', settle and certainly could cause foundation-porch-addition problems because, the soil that was up underneath a footing PROVIDING SUPPORT, has now contracted/settled.And don`t forget what roots may do in drier conditions.
--Moisture movement in reactive soils "Experts suggest that changes in the water content of clay-type soils cause up to 90% of all cracking problems in houses"
So whats better, backfill with the same expanding-contracting soil? Or at least help the bsmt wall, help lessen/relieve expanding-contracting soil OFF the wall and backfill with peastone/gravel, sand is you have too.
"Unfortunately lack of knowledge can lead to the adoption of unnecessarily expensive treatments which may be suggested by firms biased in favour of using their own patented 'cures'.
-Water coming up through center of floor? It could be because the floor is too thin, could be due to a crack(s), could be due to a floor-drain that some bozo carpet/floor covering person cemented or covered over, see this quite a bit! They cover over/cement a floor drain and so, IF and when there is a blockage in the floor drain one is going to need to access it and snake it.
Water coming up through center of floor? See 'STL basement Back up LINK' again. May be due to a blockage in lateral line etc, this happens fairly often around here. And yet, many are blccchtt`d into an Inside drain tile or baseboard system when they may simply have just needed a good honest plumber to snake etc.
Then, there are a lesser few who aleady have a sump pump but, they get water coming up through part(s) of bsmt floor. Often-not always, they too need a good honest plumber to SNAKE the tile in the PIT, back-under-the-floor. Yet again, many HO`s are talked into UN-necessary $6,000-20,000 Inside systems...snake FIRST!
When blockages occur under the floor etc, water accumulates under the floor, rises and can wick up or come up through any opening(s) in the floor or, where there may be a "thin' bsmt floor.
And THERE are the answers for what some say/think is a hydrostatic pressure problem under the floor. Shtt,that water..pressure if you wanna call it that is often from above possibilities/occurrences mentioned. Thats right, water that is accumulating under a floor due to a lateral line problem or a blockage in tile under floor which empties into sump pit etc. There`s many peoples SUPPOSED hydrostatic pressure problems under a floor.
Have many HO`s who will explain their ONLY problem was one that was remedied as stated above, and by the honest plumber i always recommend, John Scalzo.Yep, s***** through sump tile, s***** through covered-carpeted-cemented floor drains, s***** through storm trap-cleanout etc. And most of these folks were SECONDS away from spending $6,000+++ for an Interior system
And if a bsmt floor is 1-2" thin-thick and possibly cracked as well, you may indeed have to pour a thicker floor! But snake first.
Most homes, except some of those older ones, have drain tiles along the footing AND under the bsmt floor, was done when built. Gravel is backfilled by hand/wheelbarrows and it goes on the side and atop the tiles, all the way up to within a few inches of grade. Socks are bllcttt, thats my 29 years honest-exp`d opinion, another myth that is supposed to somehow help soil particles from getting in the tile, whoever wants the socks used go right ahead. Again, not 1 one problem through-over 29 years,can ya guess who is most likely right
Good for you on your mold removal company, i wish you much success! Since you are obv aware that mold needs water/moisture then, can you see how an inside drain tile/baseboard system will NOT solve 90% or so of your clients mold problems or "Future", POTENTIAL, mold problems in basements? Gotta stop-eliminate the water/moisture
Hard to give short,complete/thorough answers! Even within this long reply, i`ve left some things out.
HCC, have you thoroughly read those OTHER Links i`ve constantly posted? Yoder Group, Fairfax County, Shaker Heights Bldg dept, Bob Vila 'Why Foundations Fail' etc etc etc.
They understand alot of/most/some of whats MOST important, unlike many corrupt scammers who love to provide false-misleading claims to support the ONLY thing they do, install Inside systems!
To add to LW's answer, the foundation drain is usually routed to one of four places: 1. To daylight somewhere on the property 2. To a municipal storm drain 3. To a drywell located a distance from the house 4. A sump pump In some areas, such as in Detroit where LW is located, or in older cities anywhere in the East, sometimes there are combined sanitary sewer / storm drains, and that is the pipe that LW refers to when he says that the water goes out to the street. In those houses it is piped to the common sanitary / storm drain piping leaving the house. When LW refers to the storm trap or house trap, he's referring to the same pipe.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2561 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
A little more then I asked. But I do understand what your saying. I also understand the soil issues clay etc. Backfill and so on. We often end up replaceing interior basement floors when we remodel them because of this very issue. The clay soil silt and beer can backfill that the contractors used many years ago with a 1 or 2" slab with only about a inch of gravel always rises and settles with the wet and dry seasons. We end up digging out the clay, installing new gravel about 6" with at least a 6 mil plastic sheet, then new 5000# cement mix to complete the job. Quite often we end up replacing the inteior column footings as well as they are often sitting on clay too. We always install new PVC drainage pipes with holes only on the bottom not that cheep black roll plastic stuff in new fresh gravel before we pour. Its a lot of work but when the clients are paying us 100G+ to re-do the basement we do not want any issues with our job.
I understand that the water enters into the cracks as it flows towards the foundation, I also understand that most of the homes have poured cement foundations. but the homes that have these foundations the key where the block connects to the foundation is often where I find the cause because of poor sealing issues before the drainage system is poured. I know all to well that often the water does enter at points above and drains down to the bottom of the block where it leaks into the basement etc.Which is why so many guys install those baseboard drainage systems But in my area we often find that the mason contractor and the water-proofing contractor (laboror for the contractor)(using that term because I cannot call them what they really are in this forum) does a poor job if at all of sealing these areas on the job when the home is first constructed. I think it has to do with not wanting to bend down or something.
I am finding and I am sure Richard would agree that the construction trades are becoming mixed with one guy does all methods. Gone are the days of the flashing contractor. The roofing guy or window and door guy is supposed to know how to properly flash a home. The mason now becomes the water proofing contractor or at least until the need for the required interior drain system comes into play, then the plumber becomes the radon guy and the interior waterproofing person. None of these guys know, want to know or are willing to learn what and how their trades effect the next guy working on the home behind them.
My main branch of my company is located in NJ where most of my work is done and in the areas in which I work they are not allowed to pipe the drainage to any kind of sanitary sewer system. I do not ever remember them digging a trench for a T drain to somewhere else or to a drywell on the property during the construction phase when I am present. I am often on these sites spraying on anti-microbial coatings on the framing before the walls go up. So what do I suggest to my clients when confronted with a home I suspect does not have this what I assume is a critical part of the system? Cut through the wall and install a interior pump to pipe the water away once it collects in the exterior drainage system? Dig a drywell?
HCC
Posts: 1115 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: 31 January 2006
Well, it depends. If the soil is a well-draining type, a drywell would work well, but if it's well-draining soil, there probably aren't any water problems in the first place. Somehow, collecting water that you don't want in your basement and then piping it into the basement rubs me the wrong way, but often, the footing drains are piped into an interior sump pit and then the water is pumped back out again, and now thw question becomes, where to? Out on the ground adjacent to the house so it can recycle right back into the footing drains? Or else to daylight far from the house, or to a municipal storm drain. Not many other choices.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2561 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
check out pics 13-15, see scraper-opening at bottom of wall/top of footing. This is one area where water can enter and HO will see it on floor,near bottom of wall. NO inside system stops water from entering these exterior openings as you know.
See drain tiles along footing? Tiles are along each wall like this, they are 'supposed' to be pitched a lil from corners towards center of wall/footing where there is a T-tile, some call it a bleeder.Builder/sub who laid these tiles did a good job, not so good on other stuff
This water goes through the T-tile, there is usually a hole in footing where T is placed. Water goes through the T into other tiles under bsmt floor and often out to street.
i do NOT agree with everything that is stated, hardly! Posted for images only.For one among many, see image B012 'Bsmt leaks at lower block'. THEY say 'stains and wetness along lower block indicates a drain tile system problem'....this is waaaaay off! I`ll leave the rest alone
see efflorescence at TOP of bsmt wall just under openings? This HO, like many have efflorescence inside, some will be seen low, midway and/or up high. This HO had it up high on inside of bsmt wall. ONLY way to stop/prevent further efflorescence `n mold is to stop water/moisture from entering, this is done on the outside of course.
Just because concrete is on outside, and sloped away doesn`t mean water never gets under a drive/patio. And of course, see how easy termites,centipedes,ants etc can enter. How radon can enter.
Raising the grade will allow MORE water/moisture in the raised-soil to sit against these openings/unprotected bricks-joints amd may cause bricks to deteriorate
