Any water under the floor should flow in the 4 inches of gravel that is supposed to be under the slab. There would be no need to dig the sump deeper, especially if water is already finding its way there. Better to punch holes 6 inches below the floor in the sides of the sump, BUT that isn't solving your problem...the water is still in your house where is doesn't belong, and not outside your house where it does belong.

The theory that it's hydrostatic pressure under the floor is suspect, because how does the hydrostatic pressure magically stop precisely at floor level and not extend a fraction of an inch up the wall? More than likely the water is entering through a wall, and collecting under the floor.

Do your neighbors have a similar problem? If they do, then maybe it's a high water table, but if they don't, then it's not very probable that you have a high water table, but no one else does. I say the walls are guilty until proven innocent.

Their "should" be 4 inches of gravel under the foundation...who really knows with the way my house was built in the 60s. I have to shake my head at some of the things I see that were done to cut costs.

How would I determine how deep my floor is? From my understanding a monothlic slab could be extremely thick around all the walls because basically the slab is it's own footer.

The sump is 18 inches deep and like I said, in one corner I can put my hand in the sump and reach "under" the foundation. The hole where I can put my hand in is only a few inches wide. Should I make it wider to allow more water to come into the sump pit from under the foundation? Should I assume my floor is 18" thick in that spot? If so, where would I drill the holes in the pit?

Talking to my one neighbor who lives to my left, which is the same side of my garage where everythign leaks, they get water in the basement as well during heavy rains but don't really care about it because they have a dirt basement that they don't use. I'm not sure about my other neighboron the other side of me getting water in their basement but they did say the basement is only a couple of feet tall and they have 2 sump pumps

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Daveyd,

quote:

Originally posted by Daveyd:
Their "should" be 4 inches of gravel under the foundation...who really knows with the way my house was built in the 60s. I have to shake my head at some of the things I see that were done to cut costs.

How would I determine how deep my floor is? From my understanding a monothlic slab could be extremely thick around all the walls because basically the slab is it's own footer.

The sump is 18 inches deep and like I said, in one corner I can put my hand in the sump and reach "under" the foundation. The hole where I can put my hand in is only a few inches wide. Should I make it wider to allow more water to come into the sump pit from under the foundation? Should I assume my floor is 18" thick in that spot? If so, where would I drill the holes in the pit?

Talking to my one neighbor who lives to my left, which is the same side of my garage where everythign leaks, they get water in the basement as well during heavy rains but don't really care about it because they have a dirt basement that they don't use. I'm not sure about my other neighboron the other side of me getting water in their basement but they did say the basement is only a couple of feet tall and they have 2 sump pumps

OK, I just thought of something regarding my sump pit. As I mentioned before, the pit is about 18" deep. At the very top of the pit there is a drain tile opening that allows water to enter the pit from the exterior footer drain.

When it rains hard, water enters the sump pit VERY rapidly from the footer drain tile... http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2808/1000656kb4uh4.jpg

Now at the very bottom of the pit, on one corner, I can reach under the foundation with my hand. Could the reason I am getting so much water under the foundation, which eventually comes up trough my floor, be the fact that when water is entering the pit fast and furious after a big rain, like the pic above, then going under the foundation from the pit itself from the corner of the pit where I can reach my hand under the foundation???

I mean if there is access to under the foundation from the sump pit, and water enters the sump pit from the drain tile, it would make sense that the water in the sump pit would go right under the foundation?!?

Should I fill the sump pit with concrete or something as to not allow water to enter under the foundation from the pit itself...or...is it beneficial to a way for water to enter the sump pit without the use of drain tiles?

It seems like a catch 22...If the pit allows water to flow in it from under the foundation that would seem benefical since it is getting water out from under the foundation....however if the pit allows access to under the foundation, any water coming into the pit from drain tiles goes right under the foundation

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Daveyd,

If the water flows that furiously into the pit from the exterior drains, that supports my suspicion that the problem in in the foundation walls. Drain tiles do not collect 100% of the water that flows by them, leaving some to lie against the foundation walls, where the slightest crack could admit lots of water. As I said, the foundation walls are guilty until proven innocent.

Have a masonry contractor saw away about a foot of the garage floor, so you can do a hose test. Then you'll know. All the arcane theories in the world are not worth one simple hose test.

In the mean time, would it be a wise idea to seal off the bottom of the pit so that water cannot get under the foundation when it comes in through the drain tile? Or is it ok to leave the access under the foundation in the pit?

Right now, it hasnt rained since Sunday when we got 2 inches of rain. Water is barely trickling out of the drain tile but is still coming into to pit from under the foundation and filling the pit

Typically they mean the footing and slab were poured at the same time when referring to a monolithic floor. Nowadays this is only done with "ratwalls" but I have seen several old homes built this way. The seam I assume is just the edge of the original form, then they poured the other side right up to the first pour.

The block wall probably isn't load bearing if there is a doorway in the middle of it.

Best bet is throw some holes in it like Richard said.

quote:

Originally posted by SDW:
Typically they mean the footing and slab were poured at the same time when referring to a monolithic floor. Nowadays this is only done with "ratwalls" but I have seen several old homes built this way. The seam I assume is just the edge of the original form, then they poured the other side right up to the first pour.

The block wall probably isn't load bearing if there is a doorway in the middle of it.

Best bet is throw some holes in it like Richard said.

Oh, it's definitely load bearing as that is the only thing besides the exterior basement walls, that is holding up the house

another observation...I am assuming my basement floor is 18" thick as the sump pit is 18" and I can reach under the foundation from the pit. If in fact the floor is that thick, why would the exterior drain tile that flows into the pit almost be level with the basement floor? Shouldn't it be a heck of a lot lower...Here's the pic...

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9030/1000654cj7qi6.jpg

I don't know why you think your floor is 18 inches thisk. No one in their right mind would pour an 18-inch-thick slab for a basement floor. I also don't know why you think your floor is "monolithic." And for the record, Richard did not suggest punching holes in the block. Richard in fact advised against it.

The sump may be 18 inches deep, but that doesn't mean the floors are 18 inches deep. If you pour concrete into the sump, the water will just find its way onto your floor. For about the hundredth time, you have to find the source of the water, and that's probably through the basement walls. Until you know the source, you're farting into the wind. When you know the source, the solution will be apparent, but not until then.

The pipe coming in from outside has nothing to do with the thickness of the floor. If your floor is indeed "monolithic", it is probably four inches thick in the middle, and tapers down for maybe four feet to maybe a foot thick at the edges, if that. The thickness at the edges is likely the same as the thickness of the block walls. The apparent thickness at the sump does not indicate the floor thickness; all they did was taper the subgrade down around some kind of form to make the sump.

Find the problem. That's how you find the solution.

Richard, I thank you for all your replies and taking the time to answer my questions. I really do appreciate the advice. I do understand that I have to find the cause in order to come up with a solution.

I am a computer guy by trade and really know nothing about concrete foors/waterproofing/water tables etc...that is until recently when my basement started getting water....that is what I am asking so many questions

I have had 6 different people out too look at my house and while all had differing opinions, each and every one said it was a monolothic pour. Something about full 8" blocks sitting on the basement floor the entire perimeter of the basement

I found it odd that I could reach under my sump pit, which is 18" deep and feel under the "foundation". I could also pull out small stones or pebbles where I could reach under the pit as well as feel the concrete from the bottom of the "foundation"

I was also just questioning the location of the outside drain tile coming into the pit being all but the same height as my basement floor. Why so high? Should it have been lower? Also, the pipe itself is redish in color, I assume that it's an old clay tile?

All I know now is that it hasn't rained since Sunday, when we got 2+ inches of rain in 6-7 hours and the outside drain tile has stopped flowing into the pit but where I can get to under the "foundation" in the sump pit, water is coming in and filling the pit.

All I am doing is trying to become more educated. If I had someome like your or LWP close to me, even though you are "only" 3 hours away...LOL... I would definitely have you over. Unfortuanetly the "experts" I have to deal with have their own personal agenda which is trying to make a sale.

quote:

I also don't know why you think your floor is "monolithic." And for the record, Richard did not suggest punching holes in the block. Richard in fact advised against it.

Put holes in the sump liner, for the record!!!

Dave:

No way is your floor area 18" thick. If they poured your floor "monolithic", remember the top of the footing is the same as the top of the floor, hence the drain tile seems high. On the exterior edge of your floor (outside edge of sump)the concrete could be as thick as 42", because they dug a trench for the footing and then poured it and the slab together. The interior edge of your sump liner is most likely 4-6" thick.

I assume by sump liner you mean the concrete walls of the pit as the pit does not have a plastic liner or anything like that.

Since water is coming in from the bottom of my pit from the "hole" I described above, should I seal off that hole? The hole does allow water to come into the pit from under the basement floor but also does allow water to go under the basement floor when the outsie drain tile is filling up the pit

quote:

Originally posted by Daveyd:
I assume by sump liner you mean the concrete walls of the pit as the pit does not have a plastic liner or anything like that.

Since water is coming in from the bottom of my pit from the "hole" I described above, should I seal off that hole? The hole does allow water to come into the pit from under the basement floor but also does allow water to go under the basement floor when the outsie drain tile is filling up the pit

Any incite?

Only if more gallons per minute are flowing into the pit than the gallons per minute capacity of the pump. If that were the case, the pit itself would overflow onto the floor.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Hetzel:
Only if more gallons per minute are flowing into the pit than the gallons per minute capacity of the pump. If that were the case, the pit itself would overflow onto the floor.

I understand that. My question is...is it normal in a sump pit to be able to have water entering it from the bottom of the pit where I can reach under the "foundation" from the pit.

Would that be indicitive of a high water table? Should I seal off access from the pit to under the foundation?

Why? It's helping to get rid of the water. You don't have a high water table, you have leaking bassment walls. If you plug up the hole in the sump, that water will find its way out onto your floor somewhere else. I think this is the third time I've answered that question. One of these times, you'll believe me.

Simply put yes. Where else is the water going to come from. It starts entering from the bottom of the pit and rises as the water table comes up. The water table is determined by where the water levels out when the pump is not running.
As far as being able to reach under the foundation from the pit. Are you talking about the floor slab? or the footing that supports the walls? You should not be able to reach under the footing, if your able to do this, you have a potential structural issue on your hands and need the advice of a structural engineer to evaluate this problem and suggest methods to correct. If its just the slab of the floor overhanging the sump pump pit. you can install a plastic barrel that can be purchased at any big box store and set it into the hole to prevent additional decay of the surrounding soil. Just pour pea gravel around the outside of the plastic pit. Be sure to drill holes on bottom and sides to allow for water to enter into the pit.

What he's got there, if I understtand correctly, is a sump pit that was poured integrally with the basement floor slab. Apparently the pit has an earth bottom, and in one place he can get his hand under the concrete, and that's where the water comes in. My point was that if the water comes in there and is handled adequately by the sump pump, why plug the gap? That will just force the water to appear at some other place.

I don't believe the problem is a high water table, because the walls don't get wet. How lucky would that be that the water table coincides exactly with the floor level, and not an inch higher? The water comes in in two places...at the base of an interior masonry bearing partition, and at the base of the concrete stairs leading down from the garage to the basement. That leads me to believe that there is a leak in the basement wall, possibly between the interior bearing partition and the stair, under the garage, and I believe that is where the solution to this problem ultimately lies.

It is possible and not dificult to attack the problem from inside the garage. It means removing a strip of the garage floor, excavating, repairing the wall, and water proofing it. Then replace the strip of floor slab...problem probably solved. Doing a hose test inside the garage would entail drilling a few holes in the slab and letting the hose run in them. That will pinpoint the location of any leaks, if any. The test is worth more than all the obscure theories in the world, and it's the first step in finding the problem and curing it once and for all. That's where I would start if it were my house.

Sump "hole" video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls0mQyzHoEo

Ah a picture is worth many posts.
Where your reaching is not below any footing. They simply formed the pit with cement and poured. Then they placed a cement patch on the bottom it appears and punched holes into it to allow the water to enter. While the amount of water that is running into the pit is a little alarming it is also not uncommon.

I suggest that you go the outside water proofing method. Any water that is running into the pit at that rate is also running under the real footings of the house, thus undermining their ability to suppor the foundation walls. Solid pour or not.
You may have stated here somewhere else but if the pump is off does the water come over the floor? Or does it level off at a few inches above the pump base?