HELP!!

I bought my first home less than a year ago. A few weeks ago, I noticed that my wood mantel around my gas fireplace had water damage. We removed the mantel to discover that my carpet was molded along with the bottom portion of my wall. When I moved in, I specificaly asked if the basement leaked and was told no. They did tell me to buy a dehumidifier because it gets sticky in the basement. I ran a water test and found no water- I removed the wet dry wall and found no cracks. I called in a seepage company who wants us to install a drainage system and another sump pump at the cost of $3000, they say the water is coming in from underground- is this my only option? I have heard a lot of bad things about these sales people and I don't want to be taken advantage of. I also read something about a storm trap- what is that and how would I know if I have one? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Wendy,

Before you read this long reply, I suggest this,

Get at least 3 bids, all for the same system, this is a must.

Ask about warranties, this is critical.

Get references and see the job and ask the clients lots of questions.

Everyone has their own opinions on drain tile systems. When you have an existing home there are various systems that one can use. Which one is better than the other is sometimes debatable but the evidence in how well they work is how dry is their basement?

I think anytime you install a drain tile system, you are definitely decreasing the chances of problems so that you can enjoy the lower level. The application of sealers is fine but only if you have taken care of the infiltrating water that can be at times so powerful that it will come through the sealer. For some, the site conditions may mean that you have a high water table while for others the soil condition may act like a sponge and stay only at a certain level. What is important is to take care of issues that “might” be causing the problems to begin with. This may mean extensions on downspouts, improved grading, eliminating allot of shrubbery that can cause voids below the top soil and collect water as examples. Whatever the case may be, the need for a system that can relieve this pressure is essential. In your case, hydrostatic pressure seems to be the issue. To avoid this from coming up through the concrete, it must be collected and pumped out by the use of a good drain tile installation.

Interior Applications for Existing Homes

The WaterGuard system is one example of a system that is less intrusive in installation versus the traditional drain tile that would be used in a new home construction. Both provide the means to direct the incoming water to a sump basket to be pumped out to the exterior. Both require the need to drill weep holes in the bottom block or poured wall.

However the main difference is that the WaterGuard system is easier to install as it sits on the footing. It has no holes from the bottom or interior surface because this would prevent it from getting it to the sump basket. The minimum removal of existing concrete is less and once installed it can be easily covered with concrete, but the thickness of this replacement concrete is approx. half of the original thickness. It may cost less to install but you must decide to what degree of security you want against water infiltration.

The traditional drain tile is installed along the inside of the footing. This is then covered with pea gravel. 4” Drain tile today is not only perforated but also completely covered in a fiber mesh to avoid clogs from mud. Previously, in years gone by, this was just a perforated plastic pipe and you could apply a sheet of mesh over it, if done correctly. Bear in mind, what once was is not no more. It’s hard to dismiss myths or old ways when technology has made great improvements. The installation of this method places the tile at a lower level which means that any water that would or could come up under the slab, and this does happen, would be collected and then directed to the sump basket for discharge. The good thing is that this method does allow for the original concrete floor thickness to be installed. So yes this is more expensive but IMHO, a better option.

I do stress that trying to install any type of drain tile system is one that should encompass the entire perimeter. Doing just one portion and then finishing your lower level may be like throwing money out the window. The water may stop where you know you have a problem but what happens when it starts in another area? The purpose of drain tile is to relieve the pressure, collect it and direct it to a sump pump so it can get pumped out to an area that will not allow this excess water to return. Installing just a portion is a waste of money. That saying, “Do it right the first time or don’t do it all” would apply here.

Last issue is to install an emergency “back up sump pump” I wrote this sometime back and it may be helpful to you.

I guess if I were you I would not even consider a "Battery Back Up Sump Pump". Reason you may be asking is that it is not a guarantee that they will work when needed. As with most homeowners, we don't always check on things when we are supposed to. If it is out of sight, it definitely is out of mind!

I would recommend a good water powered sump pump backup like the Guardian, normally available through a plumber since they don't sell these over the counter through a plumbing distributor. They are not cheap, runs about $450 - $500 but this must be plumbed into a 3/4" line, and installed before going to any fixtures or tees. Labor on these can be $350 plus. The water pressure from the city powers this and does quite well - for every gallon of water used, 2 gallons is pumped out. It requires a 1 1/2 PVC pipe for discharge. It does come with a Backflow Preventer for the water inlet pipe but you will need to get a check valve for the 1 1/2" PVC line. It can lift the water up to 15 feet at 407 GPH. At 10' it is 580 GPH. It does have an adjustable float that is placed adjusted just above your existing sump pump. So when the power does come back on, yours would kick on and the back up automatically shuts down. Simple and very effective.

I am an advocate of this and have installed many, especially after a client calls and says their battery back up failed. What usually happens is the batteries fail or if wired in on its own circuit, the power goes out, breaker trips and it doesn't recharge. Other cases, the batteries have just failed. If you don't check on it, you will have problems. At least the water pressure is more of a guarantee than the battery backups. I stress this is just used as an Emergency Back Up.

Hope this helps!

Wendy,

just to be sure, this FP is in basement right? or 1st floor? there is NO dehumidifier on the planet that will stop/prevent water-moisture entry due to outside openings.

you ran a water test on the outside of where you`ve noticed water/mold inside....from ground level right? How long did you let the water run?

one can also get water inside, `n then mold, from ABOVE ground openings. so even if you have no problem/crack etc with bsmt wall does NOT mean everything on the outside of house, above ground, is water tight, know what i mean?

You NEED to FIRST correctly define what your problem, do not spend a penny till you do!

Most of the 'seepage' companies your going to find ONLY or RATHER install an inside drain tile or baseboard system so...of course this is their answer/SUPPOSED remedy for you & everybody else, NONSENSE! Most do not need it, i`m telling ya lolol. believe what you want

Wendy.....'IF'....you have a blockage UNDER the bsmt floor it OFTEN can be freed by having an honest/exp. plumber snake through storm trap, thats right.

MANY homeowners get talked in to inside systems w/sumps instead of FIRST defining what the darn problem(s) is. And inside systems do NOT stop/prevent water from entering outside cracks `n OTHER openings `n so, they also will not stop/prevent mold/efflorescence etc.

the trap/clean out is usually found in basement floor, not talking about the floor drain(s)....whoever installed carpet may have covered it.

where are you located?

Doug,

with all due respect.....

and folks, one cannot give a short lil answers to so many basement problems/possibilites so, if you REALLY want to try `n understand then ya have read the whole darn thing lol, sorry!

let me ask you please, how many basement waterproofing jobs have you done and guaranteed? I don`t mean new-construction, not damproofing.

i read you have 25 or so years working in remodeling industry as general contractor and a real estate agent for Coldwell B`r and century 21....is this correct?

The water guard system does NOT stop/prevent water from entering basements through cracks `n other openings in basement walls and above basement walls, never has `n never will.

Water guard system will then not stop/prevent mold & efflorescence due to water/moisture entering into home.

Water guard system does not lessen/reduce/relieve lateral & hydrostatic soil pressure that is against the outside of basement walls which can certainly cause basement walls to crack, leak, bow etc. Roots can also cause walls to crack/bow, doing anything on the inside of basements will not take these pressures off the outside of walls.

read 6th para.... http://www.yodergroup.com/concrete.asp

Why would anyone who fully understands basement waterproofing `n foundation work recommed a systems that does NOT Stop/Prevent water entry and other problems that can Only be fixed from the Outside?

Do i have this right? You are recommending to HO`s with leaky/moldy basements, some of which have bowed walls to, NOT stop the water from entering but rather, go ahead and allow the water to continue to enter `n increase probability of mold etc by installing the Water Guard system of other Inside water-DIVERTING system, right?

Telling HO`s to allow water to continue to enter into and through hollow-block walls can......deteriorate the block wall my good man.

And, drilling holes in hollow block walls allows radon gas much easier access into the basement/house. And like i say, quite a few HO`s have no idea what shape their basement walls are in when they buy a house with a finished basement, paneling-drywall up.

Inside sytems, water guard etc, create a DAMP basement, an ideal setting for insects.

You say the purpose of the drain tile under the floor is to relieve pressure? what? lol

Drain tile does NOT relieve pressure!!!

At best, drain tile will DIRECT 'SOME' water to a sump, thats not relieveing pressure. A build up/increase of water UNDER a basement floor happens to all homes when it rains,geesus, in NO way does this mean anyone needs any kind of Inside system w/sump.

Its the quick/sudden BACK UP of water on heavy rains that MIGHT cause water to be forced up through cracks in floor or along the cold joint/isolation joint. Doesn`t mean an inside drain tile or other system is needed at all!

Again, its almost always a sudden/fast back-up of water from street which might be citys problem OR a blockage that can often be freed/relieved by snaking the storm trap. C`mon

For those who have homes below sea level or the like, yeah, they may need a sump or 2 to.... 'control' the water-level under the bsmt floor but again, it does NOT mean they need ANY kind of drain tile or baseboard system, thats a STORY Many Inside Co`s want HO`s to believe.

Doug, are you aware that the reason MOST basements leak/seep/get water on floor is due to....direct openings on the outside?

Doug, if a HO had a hole in roof valley what would you recommend? Would you tell the HO to fix/divert that water from inside, like in attic, divert the water into a bucket? lol...Or, would you recommend to HO to, go Outside and get up on roof and FIND the OPENING(s) and fix them? Hmmm

Doug, IF a HO had water entering the house through/around window would you....recommend they allow that water to continue to enter and divert it on inside or, go outside and caulk/replace window?

Mr Doug .....do YOU install Inside systems/Water Guard etc?

http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/Why_Foundations_Fa...oundation-A2095.html

http://www.askthebuilder.com/NH058_-_Waterproofing_Foundations.shtml

http://www.riverwatchonline.org/news/winnipeg_press/07_09_05.html

http://www.al-home-inspections.com/news-articles/article-4.html

http://www.fanninremodeling.com/floodbasement.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/molds/images/moldguide.pdf

will someone please tell me/show me where it is stated by a competent human to, stop/prevent MOLD on basement wall/under carpet etc due to cracks `n other openings on Outside of house, it is best/reccomended to install an Inside drain tile or baseboard system? help me with this please, lol

How could it POSSIBLY be in the best interest of ANY HO to allow water/moisture to CONTINUE to enter?

And Radon gas, drilling holes in Block Walls huh? Leaving gaps OPEN along the cold joint/cove? This is what Inside systems will give you...

How does Radon gas ENTER?

http://www.epa.gov/radon/pubs/physic.html#Character

well, ahem, says here it enters from the SOIL-THROUGH cracks in concrete floors and walls, floor drains, sump pumps, constrcution joints, and tiny cracks or pores in hollow block walls

a) cracks in concrete slabs
b) spaces between brick veneer walls......
c) pores and cracks in concrete blocks
d) floor-wall joints....hello?
f) exposed soil, as in a sump....uh huh
g) weeping drain tile, if drained to open sump
h) mortar joints and so on!

Why can`t many of the people who want to sell you these Inside water-Diverting systems get/understand the ENTIRE picture when it comes to basement waterproofing? Know why? `Cos Many do not have decades of hands-on experience, its sooo true! yeah yeah, they`ll tell ya a whole `nother story but seriously, Most if not ALL of these people have NOT been around for 25-30+ years AND have done the job, the work from Outside to SEE `n understand ALL situations. They have NOT run ever single estimate to SEE `n understand whats going on, on the Inside of basement, then fix the problem correctly on outside without gouging the HO and then, call back `n follow up for months, then YEARS with these same HO`s.

Yeah, the same HO`s who had mold growing on part of wall or had efflorescence on wall, crack that was widening, wall that was bowing in.

Ask these INSIDE Co`s if their supposed Lifetime Warranty COVERS...

a) mold,mildew,efflorescence,damp spots etc on YOUR basement wall
b) water/moisture entring the Basement Wall, ask em! See, some won`t know or SEE because the company put a sheeting/bright wall up against YOUR basement wall
c) ask them if they cover a crack that may WIDEN, get bigger
d) ask if they cover a wall that may bow in more due to OUTSIDE Soil pressure and/or tree roots
e) ask `em about the distinct probability of an INCREASE in radon gas entering your basement due to drilling holes in hollow blocks and/or leaving a gap, a space, between the floor and bsmt wall. If YOU read the epa-radon link above you should already understand what i`m trying to inform ya`s about
f) and hey, lolol, ask them if THEY cover the ENTIRE basement-floor,OR, they only cover the part of basement floor where they put their water diverting method in, go ahead.
g) ask them if they cover, they`ll guarantee that YOUR basement-floor will not crack, heave up in the future....start with those

And don`t forget about our lil insects friends, remember how they enter your house?

haha, yeah, many enter through cracks and other direct OPENINGS that are, ahem....on the OUTSIDE. Gotta go outside to seal `n stop these pathways into your house, sheesh. Sure, some will enter through floor drains and guess what, if you have an inside system put in and they leave a gap/space between the bsmt flor and wall, well, there is another perfect entryway for these pests to enter your basement!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofer,

Doug,

now i see, when i go to your Hm Project central link, at bottom of that page, when i click 'home' guess who/what pops up on next link? lolol.....yeah, good old Everdry!

Yeah, same company who wants $17,200 for their Inside perimeter system, like the one you speak so highly about, ha!

Uh huh, same company, and other inside knotheads who, go on estimates and BS homeowners `n tell them an Outside method is soooo expensive/not necessary etc and actually state an Exterior method costs $26,000! Don`t believe me? NO problemo....many homeowners more than willing to help `n talk to other HO`s and describe/inform of what these inside dinks really say. There is SOOO much crap/lies/misinformation out here on this subject, un-be-lievable

Licensed Waterproofer,

As I mentioned first and foremost, everyone has their own "opinions". Professionally speaking or not.

Wendy needs only to get qualified companies to assess what the problems might be, determine the budget she can afford to resolve the problem.

I am assuming that you feel like I stepped on your toes which is not the case. What I posted was good information BUT it doesn't imply I am into basement waterproofing as a profession. I only stated the drain tile application, as I have seen them installed and it WORKS. This applies to new and existing structures.

Now this doesn't mean that it is the only option but as you said, there are many things that could be causing the problem and how one attacks this problem will be based upon "good evaluation" of the problem.

Unsure where you read about my past experiences, it is all true and accurate but I am good at what I do and I am sure that you are at what you do. I agree with the majority of what you posted. However, you failed to suggest any remedy for Wendy that she should consider.

I am not into liquid applied fixes, exterior or interior applications. I too have read many stories about what they are intended to do but again, existing conditions and problems require a permanent fix. Since I am a designer, with good common sense, I never suggest to any HO to just make do when they are wanting to invest thousands of dollars to renovating a lower level. That would be outright negligence on my part.

I in fact suggest taking care of all exterior problem areas first before investing in other methods like proper grading, gutters, landscaping, window wells, etc. Most, not all, water infiltration issues can be resolved before considering more expensive methods.

I just mentioned Water Guard as an example, nothing more, nothing less. Most HO feel that systems like this or the Beaver system are the cure, it is just a collection process that doesn't fix anything. So you are right, problems with moisture and mold would still be present.

So all in all, Wendy needs good direction that is aimed at her issues and NOT a critical evaluation of what I posted. The goal is to help, not redirect issues that do not help.

Mr Doug,

haha, no you didn`t 'step on my toes', hardly, you stepped on your own if anything,imo.

yeah yeah, everybody has their own opinion, thing is Doug, how many providing these opinions/supposed fixes have thorough-hands-on knowledge? Isn`t that vaguely important?

you say you`ve seen inside systems installed and they work, lol. Hmm,lets eyeball that a lil closer, get INTO the truth of the matter. Inside systems do NOT stop/prevent water from entering cracks `n other dircet openings on the outside of homes, never have never will, gotta go outside to accomplsih that, sheesh.

What SOME inside systems will do IS.......
..keep most of the water that is Still-Entering, under-off most of the floor OR, inside their bs perimeter above floor system and direct the water into a sump pump. It isn`t 'Waterproofing' the basement, its re-directing water that still enters. Waterproofing means 'made of or coated-treated with rubber,plastic or a sealing agent to PREVENT Penetration by water'....'not permitting penetration or passage of water'....got milk?

Doncha think, stopping/preventing water from FIRST entering the basement is Most important?
If one doesn`t then, the chances of mold increase, yeah, increase behind paneling that many inside companies love to put up against the bsmt wall. What about efflorescence?

And Doug, like i say, what about waterproofing/sealing the crack(s) `n other openings in basement walls to stop the real possibility of radon gas entering? READ the EPA link i posted, thats right, don`t believe me, read OTHER links.

Umm, what about insects that enter our homes through the same cracks/openings that are outside? Ya know how much damage termites do to homes every year?

You want people to spend thousands to remodel their basements and continue to have damp,musty,moldy basement environment with insects? lol c`mon

And what about those who have a bsmt wall or 2+ that are bowing in or, cracks are widening? This isn`t a small number as other inside guys who`ve posted here have suggested, shtt, they dont know and/or do not care to admit to. Walls can crack, leak, bow and even collapse inward due to OUTSIDE soil pressure `n roots, so, any Inside systems does NOT address these Big time problems either.

I`ve made the very real point that Inside drain tile systems also Increase the pathways/openings for radon gas to enter, for insects to enter.

Whats with some people? What, its ok to spend $5,000-10,000 on remodeling a basement but NOT ok spend whatever IS needed to correctly waterproof a wall, or one part of a wall w/ a crack? BS!

Remedies? if you care i get way-into that `n other crap right here, on hgtvpro message board. See topic 'Basement Waterproofing-Foundation failure'

Evaluation of what YOU posted is critical because alot of it directs HO`s down the WRONG ROAD and i`m tired of seeing-meeting people who have got crapped on, ok? Geezuz, do people think i want to/like to dig dicthes by hand? At my age? lolol, thing is, its whats BEST for Most basement problems for god sake! Am I the only person alive that can respond-help people who have leaky basements-cracked/bowed walls? Heck NO, but whether you like it or not, i`m one of a FEW who possess overall knowledge 'AND'is as honest as any contractor on this planet.Ya can`t possess the knowledge if you don`t DO-the-Job over `n over, decade after decade, nope. Can`t learn THIS trade by reading a book/taking a test like some Hm inspectors think.

You may indeed be a great person who cares about people but maybe look at it from where i sit `n have seen for 28 years. Part of caring about others problems to ME is pointing them in the right direction with ALL facts, not this one-sided buncha crap many inside co`s shuffle around.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofer,

LicensedWaterproofer,

OK, points noted and we do agree on most issues.

I, as well as others can provide rebutal to what you mention but still I have not heard what you may suggest for Wendy. I will admit I am not the expert on waterproofing, never claimed to be but only provided info on what I have seen. Can you provide any suggestions for her?

By the way, what is this?

quote:

now i see, when i go to your Hm Project central link, at bottom of that page, when i click 'home' guess who/what pops up on next link? lolol.....yeah, good old Everdry

This isn't me, are you sure you are looking All-Pro Home Services? If it is on the Hm Project Central link, then it is their advertising, not mine. My web site is www.allprohomeservices.com and I do residential design and drafting, project management.

Just wondering

Doug,

as so often as i have done, she and anybody else needs to FIRST correctly define where/how water is first entering....THEN they can choose correct remedy. In THIS business, people get in trouble whenproblem(s) are NOT defined correctly--are assumed, thus the work that gets done will not solve the problem(s), they`ll still leak, mold gets worse, same w/efflorescence, crack widening, wall bowing in etc etc etc.

i cannot do/post much more than i have on other topic...'basement waterproofing-foundation failure'. Do i have every single solitary answer for those asking here? NO!! Thats impossible without seeing each individual problem but, i try `n post many-most. And yet again, lol, MOST basements leak-seep due to, OUTSIDE openings.

As for the link, all i can tell ya is, when i went to a 'home project central' link, all throughout page is 'your' company/services and at bottom of page, when i click 'home' it directed me to another site where up popped an Everdry ad, ha, if its not you then, its not you!

LicensedWaterproofer,

I totally agree!! Many times I get questions as to what can I do and in most cases, it needs to have someone look at it. The web has made it easy to ask questions but the answers can be very "misleading" and in some cases, the questions asked with explanations don't tell the whole story, so the answers given can sometimes be just a "shot in the dark".

Can you send me a copy of the link to what you are referring on Hm page? If what you are clicking, places you to a site that is not associated with me, I really need to correct it. I'd appreciate it.

Thanks