Hi all,

I've read through a number of the threads, and I am a little at a loss on how to interpret the srong opinions and personal conflict. That said, I am considering an inside system given the following circumstances:
- My problem is in a 4 year old addition. I have solid walls with no cracks, and a foor with no cracks
- During Spring thaw I get intense seepage from the wall/floor joint crack that fills the area with water. When I say fills - there is a step up into the rest of the basement, and I will find several inches of water in this 24x24 foot area when this starts. I currently need to run a portable pump at floor level for 1-2 weeks to resolve the problem.
- The basement is bone dry the rest of the year. No evidence of mold, etc.
- On rare occassion, maybe twice during extreme circumstances, including the fall of Hurricane Katrina, I had the same problem at other times of the year. (well, Hurricane katrina was 18 inches in my entire basement, but that's another thing. I live in Massachusetts by the way - not in the primary path)
- Excavating the exterior wall is not a viable approach
- My lot slopes gradually toward this foundation at the back of the house, and there's not much I can do to further improve the slope in that area. I do dump the downspouts about 8 feet out into a slight swale.

I don't see a great alternative. I am considering Pioneer Basement in Massachusetts who seems to have a decent record on BBB, but am open to other ideas.

Phelps

You don't explain why excavation outside the walls is not a viable approach, but assuming it's true, then it's too bad, because the source of your water is outside, and that is where it must be dealt with. It's very possible your foundation has insufficient or failed dampproofing, or cracks on the outside, and what you want to do is keep water OUT of your house, not let it in and have someone attempt to control it. Inside systems cannot stop mold, insects and vermin or radon gas, and the truth is they cannot stop water entry either.

There is no such thing as a grading problem that can't be solved. A more definite swale can be created, with more slope of the ground away from the house. It's possible thia alone can solve your problem. If not, then interceptor drains could solve it.

A simple hose test during dry weather will reveal whether your foundation admits water, and if it does, then what must be done is whatever repairs are necessary to stop the entry of water into your house. While you are at it, it will be a good time to diagnose exactly what the problem is, and remedy it.

An inside system fixes nothing...at best, it's a band-aid, and at worst, it is a costly exercise and a huge headache and a waste of money, and you'll still be left with the problem.

first of all,this opinion is based on doing-the-job for nearly 3 decades and witnessing all kinds of bogus bs supposed-brilliant answers/remedies to homeowners leaks/problems.

a smaller number of us out here who`ve accumulated no customer complaints in all those years VERSUS, a larger and Increasing number of inside water-diverting companies, quite a few of which have accumulated 25-50++ customer complaints, just in the last 36 months

why is it if one googles waterproofing 'complaints-problems-ripoffs-lawsuits etc' that at least 90% is all inside systems-companies? its obvious! and probably more like 95%... think about it, who is being honest here, who is informing people of all/most possibilities? obvious as well.

part of the 'conflict' as you say, arises from water-diverting companies who OFTEN bs people into inside systems they do NOT need and these companies ONLY do or, rather do. Add to that, they talk many homeowners into full perimeter inside system when MANY ho`s only have 1 wall, 1 corner etc that leaks.

Many inside companies tell ho`s and advertise what they do is 'waterproofing'....well, its not. Its waterdiverting. Then add many of these same companies charge ho`s $8,000-$17,000 for an inside system is incredible, NONSENSE.

if you can post pics of your situation it may help. i would recommend to you to.....DEFINE the problem(S) BEFORE spending one cent.If you want to hire Pioneer/whoever, thats your call.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofer,

Thanks to you both.

I would describe my problem as controlling episodic flooding, not controlling moisture. There's not much in the way of a picture to post (at least not til Spring thaw). The basement is, as noted, dry as a bone most of the time. No dampness, no evidence of mold. No cracks in the walls or floor other than the joints.

When it's bad- Spring thaw most likely - there is seepage from the fllor/wall joint around the perimter, and the basement floods. As the water recedes there is a clear dampness around that joint, but nothing higher up on the walls.

Two questions:
1. When IS an inside solution appropriate in your opinion?
2. Licensed Waterproffer - Yuu note in one of your posts that 90% of the problems are cracks and openings through a basement wall or direct openings - what about the 10% that are "up through floor drains and or cracks int he basement floor" which seems to most describe my situation?

Thanks again

Phelps

Phelps,you don't mention whether or not you have a sump pit and pump system. If you do, then clearly it's not keeping up with the water coming in. If you don't you may need to consider one. Your situation sounds very similar to an addition that I built about 15 years ago. I live in the Chicago metro area, and we started the excavation for the addition foundation as soon as the ground thawed enough so that we could dig, sometime in early March as I recall. The excavation went fine, footings were formed and poured, and walls poured on top of footings with no sign of water at all. We started framing and were a week or so into the framing when the homeowner called early one Saturday morning to let me know that water was seeping into the old part of the basement at the point where the new basement tied into the old. Luckily there was a floor drain about 8 feet away from the corner where the seepage was occurring so no damage was done to the old basement. The only thing different from the previous two weeks since the excavation had begun was that the outdoor temps had risen into the forties over the previous 24 hours for the first time in months and the snow and ice cover were melting fast. I went to the site to find that indeed the new basement excavation had filled with about 18 inches of water over night! I needed a pump to empty the hole for about the next week every day that the temps were in the forties, then the water abruptly stopped. My concrete sub poured the floor about a month later and we never had a water issue again for the next few months while the project was finished up. I subsequently went back to do some remodeling work for the same homeowner a couple of years later and the customer told me that for a couple of weeks every spring the sump runs continuously, then the pit is bone dry for the other 50 weeks of the year. Could be a spring runs directly under the property and the spring thaw causes the water table to rise just enough each spring for it to be an issue. Who knows for sure. I would also consider some sort of interior perimeter collection system as a last resort. I have used both interior and exterior remedial repair systems quite successfully over many years. Contrary to the opinion of some posters here, there are circumstances where only one or the other are appropriate in my opinion. I lurked in these forums for months before posting for the first time just a few days ago, because of what seemed like a lot of bickering back and forth between different parties with different opinions and different agendas. It seems sometimes that the tone of posters here is a bit argumentative. I have been in the construction(additions, custom homes, spec homes, and remodeling) business for 20 + years and one thing I know for sure is that there are frequently many solutions that will work for any given circumstance. I would consider digging a sump pit before anything else.

phelps...

when is an inside solution appropriate?

Nowhere near what some want the public to believe, maybe 10% of the time

When a house WITH a basement is built where it probably shouldn`t have been/builder gets cheap land/high water table area...or like New Orleans

And even with some of those 10%, they`ll still need to Waterproof crack(s) that can occur,wall bowing in from Outside. Yep, if they want to STOP water from entering through cracks etc and help prevent chance of mold/efflorescence and/or lessen soil pressure on outside, they`ll need exterior work.

Basement walls should be 'waterproofed' when built, not-damproofed and, should be backfilled with most-all gravel. And when built in high water table area then they`ll most-likely also need a sump pump(s) to....help control water under the basement floor.

Some folks are talked into drain tile/baseboard system when all they needed, if house built on a spring etc, was a sump pump(s) OR, for quite a few homeowners, when they get a back up they are talked into inside systems when they just needed a plumber to SNAKE through strom trap/cleanout.

http://mkasmtp1.stlmsd.com/Outreach/basement_bkup.pdf

--Three Typical Causes of a Basement Backup--Flooding

1) faulty/blocked/collapsed home lateral line

2) overcharged sewer line

3) blocked sewer line

Do INSIDE Companies EXPLAIN any of this shtt on estimates to homeowners, huh?

And many also lie/misinform homeowners on estimates about exterior waterproofing, they sure as hlll do, i`m REALLY tired of this crap...scamming self interest pathetic NON experts

Back to link, it says .."are there other ways water can enter my home? ...yes, water can enter through your home`s doors,windows and/or cracks in the foundation

what some don`t get is, some homeowners who have water coming up through floor crack(s) or floor drain, hey, pretty dang often these problems can be solved by running a snake through storm trap or drain. Water that comes UP through a crack could simply mean there is a blockage under floor, often has NOTHING to do with any need for an Inside system...snake FIRST! Define the dang problem(s) first.

And then some homeowners, especially those with older homes may have a basement floor that was poured THIN, yep, sometimes around 2"...well, these are more apt to crack or have damp spots on basement floor, especially when it rains alot spring thaw. they may need a sump pump++ etc.

Some think they have a high water table simply due to having a house near a lake etc...have done many jobs where house was built 20' or so off Lake St Clair/Detroit River etc and they had a crack or 2 and ONLY needed those cracks Waterproofed on outside, nothing at all needed on Inside although when they were getting est`s, several Inside Co`s tried to BLLCHTT them about house sitting on high water table and supposed remedy was an Inside drain tile system w/sump....like i say, pure BS.

pjp,

your entitled to your opinion like anyone else

not trying to disrespect, am sure your good at what you do...remodeling/additions etc

if and when a house is built on a spring and a HO has problem/seepage n basement, the water table most often is going to rise just with decent rains, sure spring thaw too but thats where the rain/water goes...into the soil and w/spring its going to rise quite often,especially on longer/heavy rains.

Mass. gets its fair share of precipitation throughout each year and so, most likely would leak/seep more often, not just in the springtime,they`ve had some good heavy precip.days over last 4 years

You say one thing you know for sure is that there are frequently many solutions that will work for any given circumstance, and you`d consider a sump pit...

well imo,not with basement waterproofing, what about these circumstance`s.. homeowner has block wall that leaks due to crack on outside of wall, how many different solutions are there to stop water from entering?

or, homeowner has poured wall where water enters through a couple rod holes behind drywall, how many solutions will work here? Whats best for the homeowner?

Or, homeowner has wall that bowing in a bit due to expanding-contracting soil pressure, how many solutions will solve problem?

Homeowner has some mold & efflorescence on block wall at/near corner and only leaks on heavy rains or spring thaws, how many solutions will stop water,prevent further mold/efflorescence?

Homeowner gets water up through floor drain, are there many solutions here too?

Just asking....not trying to be 'argumentative', just trying to wade through the bs and get straight to the facts, no harm in that is there?

quote:

Originally posted by pjpca:
Phelps,you don't mention whether or not you have a sump pit and pump system. If you do, then clearly it's not keeping up with the water coming in. If you don't you may need to consider one. Your situation sounds very similar to an addition that I built about 15 years ago. I live in the Chicago metro area, and we started the excavation for the addition foundation as soon as the ground thawed enough so that we could dig, sometime in early March as I recall. The excavation went fine, footings were formed and poured, and walls poured on top of footings with no sign of water at all. We started framing and were a week or so into the framing when the homeowner called early one Saturday morning to let me know that water was seeping into the old part of the basement at the point where the new basement tied into the old. Luckily there was a floor drain about 8 feet away from the corner where the seepage was occurring so no damage was done to the old basement. The only thing different from the previous two weeks since the excavation had begun was that the outdoor temps had risen into the forties over the previous 24 hours for the first time in months and the snow and ice cover were melting fast. I went to the site to find that indeed the new basement excavation had filled with about 18 inches of water over night! I needed a pump to empty the hole for about the next week every day that the temps were in the forties, then the water abruptly stopped. My concrete sub poured the floor about a month later and we never had a water issue again for the next few months while the project was finished up. I subsequently went back to do some remodeling work for the same homeowner a couple of years later and the customer told me that for a couple of weeks every spring the sump runs continuously, then the pit is bone dry for the other 50 weeks of the year. Could be a spring runs directly under the property and the spring thaw causes the water table to rise just enough each spring for it to be an issue. Who knows for sure. I would also consider some sort of interior perimeter collection system as a last resort. I have used both interior and exterior remedial repair systems quite successfully over many years. Contrary to the opinion of some posters here, there are circumstances where only one or the other are appropriate in my opinion. I lurked in these forums for months before posting for the first time just a few days ago, because of what seemed like a lot of bickering back and forth between different parties with different opinions and different agendas. It seems sometimes that the tone of posters here is a bit argumentative. I have been in the construction(additions, custom homes, spec homes, and remodeling) business for 20 + years and one thing I know for sure is that there are frequently many solutions that will work for any given circumstance. I would consider digging a sump pit before anything else.

LicensedWaterproofer, I'm not remotely interested in getting into a debate with you about who's got better solutions to water intrusion issues. Nor am I interested in supplying hypothetical solutions to questions of what to do about various scenarios posed by you. You have your area of expertise and clearly it's not mine. I was offering my opinion of a viable solution to Phelp's water problem. I was simply stating that maybe a sump pit and pump was a relatively inexpensive solution to control an existing situation, as opposed to the considerably more expensive option of excavating around a foundation and waterproofing. Phelps stated that the water intrusion was from the joint between slab and wall, and excavation and waterproofing of the exterior foundation walls is no guarantee that he won't continue to get that seepage. I was simply proposing what I felt might be a better approach to controlling what seems to me to be a rising water table issue based on calendar and weather. Unfortuneately, both of our professions are plagued by bad reputations, and I'm not about to contribute to that negativity by beating a dead horse.

What is missed here is the necessity to properly DIAGNOSE the problem, before selecting a solution. What is also missed is that water frequently manifests itself at the cold joint between slab and wall, when it actually enters the foundation elsewhere.

Time and time again, there has been the recommendation to test in various ways to determine the source of the water, before taking any action. Yes, a sump and pump MAY control water once it's inside the structure, but it will not stop the intrusion of water, and it will not deter the intrusion of insects, or radon gas, nor deter the development of mold, nor prevent the deterioration of foundation masonry due to constant presence of water

Recommendations made here try to suggest ways of finding problems and determining real long-term solutions to all problems, not the application of band-aids to only one of them.

Richard, how would you "DIAGNOSE" Phelps' problem exactly?

That's been explained may times here. Simply stated, a thorough examination of all possible ways that water might enter which are visible, elimination of such possible causes as a back-up in a combined sewer discharge pipe, if one exists, and hose testing to try to discover where water enters and where it doesn't. When all that is done, there will be a picture of the issues, and a solution will be apparent.

Richard, I have to say as a GC of 20 + years, a BOCA licensed residential and light commercial framing, electrical, and plumbing inspector; I'm suspicious of your responses!

pjp,

you say basement waterproofing/foundations is not your area of expertise, you say your not 'remotely' interested in trying to answer what are 'actual-problems-occurences' that have one answer/remedy and, thats fine `n thanks for being honest about that. Some who 'lurk' here profess they are experts just because they install inside systems.

but then you go on to say things that just aren`t automatically true, such as, you were offering your opinion/assumption of a 'viable solution', sump...and what you deem may be/cost 'considerably more expensive-option of excavating'.

first, as has been noted time and again...the problem should always be defined FIRST, period.

a sump/pit may cost more and, have yet to see an Inside Co 'only' install a sump, shtt, most want to install perimeter system with sump, know how much that`ll be? sure, maybe a HO could find a plumber/other to put sump/pit in and maybe it is all thats needed, maybe not. i wouldn`t say 'maybe' its a 'viable and less costly solution'....wouldn`t side-to that view

just because Phelps or others see/have water enter onto floor at cold joint doesn`t define there is a problem under the floor or a high water table, no!

there is also NO Guarntee having an Inside drain tile or sumps put in will solve problem(s) that haven`t yet been....defined. Need to step back, take some time and define problem(s).

on poured walls, sometimes the problem/openings ARE small imperfections on outside at base of poured wall, at the cold joint. WATERPROOFING these openings outside will stop water from entering versus a sump-drain tile system that won`t stop water from entering but rather divert the continuing entry of water under the floor.

most likey, this addition was NOT Waterproofed and was not backfilled with most-all gravel

only agenda as you say i have is...informing people of all facts/possibilities versus, those who DO indeed have an agenda, that agenda too often being selling/pushing an Inside system on people when it is most often NOT needed. Plus, its often all they do/install and so, it IS self interest.

add to that, they often sell these systems based on false claims/lies.i`m tired of those who often state "Oh, exterior is very costly, doesn`t work etc"....this IS a LIE!

and, lolol, many overcharge for this much easier, much less laborious system...geeuzzz, what about the few materials, cheap at that, versus what is needed with exterior method, its not even close and yet, they charge imo waaaaay too much and often, as much if not more than an exterior method. Thats the truth

Pj, are you aware that many of these Inside-salespeople who run estimates are ONLY somewhat knowledgable on what their company does/installs/pushes, they are NOT basement waterproofing/foundation experts and most often are NOT DEFINING the homeowners problem(s).Nor are some,probably most, of these OWNERS experts. And if the owner doesn`t possess overall knowledge then, what do you think the installers/salespeople etc have upstairs?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofer,

quote:

Richard, I have to say as a GC of 20 + years, a BOCA licensed residential and light commercial framing, electrical, and plumbing inspector; I'm suspicious of your responses!

Be my guest. I was already designing major projects, some of which incorporated extensive waterproofing methods, 20+ years before you started as a contractor. When you are finished being suspicious, then I suggest you sit down, think a little bit, and post something that proves what I say here is wrong. I can't imagine that it is wrong to diagnose a problem before selecting a solution, but hey, we learn something every day, don't we? Maybe it's your turn today.

Thank you all. Much to think about.

pjpca, thanks for an alternate and reasonable view.

LW and Richard, I have to say that while I have learned a lot from this forum, the level of contentiousness and animosity in responses is very offputting. In particular, LW you never did answer my questions about WHEN an inside solution is useful ... you just repeated your mantra about "hardly ever". I have found it difficult to sift out the useful information from that sort of response. Please don't take this wrong - I appreciate the time you spend making recommendations on this site - it's just that your advice gets lost in your focus on that issue.

Again, thanks.

Phelps

It's no mystery. An inside system is useful when it is the correct solution to a well-defined properly-diagnosed problem.

The reason for the animosity towards those who install them is that they do not even attempt to diagnose anything. They simply install the system and say "see? no more water on your basement floor!" The issue with them is that by not defining the problem first, the problem still remains, and all of the deleterious effects of water intrusion remain except water on the floor. Thse effects could range from minor annoyances to major health problems to catastrophic failure of the foundation.

The attitude toward your particular post, just speaking for myself, is that you seemed to have settled on that kind of non-solution even after reading the voluminous comments, backed by links to solid sources of information not connected to anyone who posts here, which have outlined the steps to follow to truly cure problems of wet basements. One wonders what more one would have to do to make a point, and save people from potentially wasting a LOT of money.

Hey Phelps,

i believe i did give you an answer, and to much greater lengths within other posts/threads you said you read

love the way these inside guys come on here and keep asking about problems-slanted-towards inside systems under different board-names

Phelps, you already stated you dont want or maybe dont see exterior as 'your' approach and are considering Pioneer bsmt systems, fine, hire em. If you`ve read some of ther posts here you already knew the replies you were about to receive

No, many of these recent posts are from inside jokers, yep, no doubt in my mind.

If you 'hire???' Pioneer bsmt systems, will Steven Andras, the owner, be on the job? Or will they send a sub-crew with 1 or 2 fancy-titled nawsrc certified guys?

Sheesh, if they`ve already been to your home it seems they haven`t defined the problem yet huh

i`ve stated the facts, ANYONE who doesn`t like em then just move on. You inside people are not gonna bllchtt me, most of you pretentious big mouths who most always do NOT define the homeowners problem(s).

go call 10 inside companies, they`ll happily give you the bllchtt answers you seem to want to hear, here ya go, ask www.nawsrc.org or www.pioneerbasement.com/forum/index.php

here ya go, looks like a little problem http://www.pioneerbasement.com/forum/showthread.php?t=442

least i`ll try to answer direct/simple questions, where was their answers here?

http://www.pioneerbasement.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323

the answer some bozos give to this question, why do quite a few companies who only-rather install inside systems have 5,10,30,50++ BBB customer complaints in the LAST 36 months?? is, 'Oh, you`d have bunch of complaints too if you did the same amount of work/jobs"...is Bllllchtttttttttttttt.

Let me ask this since you say you find my posts repetitive and diificult to sift through,

did you find the other-links difficult/repetitve etc? The Yoder Group link,Bob Vila/AsktheBuilder/FairfaxCounty/Shakerheights etc? What do THEY try `n explain to YOU/others?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofer,

Phelps, if you'd like to hear the details of what I'd propose doing, which is NOT what either Richard or LW are talking about, feel free to email me at pjpca@comcast.net. I can assure you it will be a much more civilized and rational conversation!

Sure, get the converstaion out of here, where the truth is offered. Much easier to mislead people one-on-one. "Hey, don't listen to those guys, they don't know what they're talking about, trust me, the NAwhatever-certified expert...." See if that doesn't sound familiar...