Hello all, I have some questions hopefully the experts can answer, but first a little backround (I apologize for the length, but I don't think one can get detailed answers to simplistic information, so I'll try and provide as much as I can). I bought a home 2 years ago in Wisconsin that the previous homeowners failed to disclose the basement leaks, alot, especially in heavy rains. 2/3 of the basement is a full basement 11 blocks high by my count, while a 3rd is a crawlspace with a concrete floor 5 blocks high. After first purchasing, I wasn't crazy about the crawlspace but a wanted to clean it up and use it for storage, until spring rains came and I saw that it filled completely with water about an inch deep. I noticed the driveway at the top had sunk slightly towards the house and had that mudjacked and that solved 95% of the water coming in from the front, although that wall is probably cracked on the outside because if I let a hose run with the water there for 30 to 45 minutes, I can hear the blocks filling with water and it starts to weep out of the 2nd course of blocks. An improvement to be sure, but not a final solution (This is on the South side of the house). On the SouthWest corner, there are step cracks and I can see where they were patched on the inside, and someone installed one of those stupid internal drain cover deals running to the sump pump that also resides in that corner. They errected an office in the basement there, which I suspect the main reason was to hide this, but I ripped down some of the drywall and discovered it when I had cold air blowing in during the winter and needed to find the source. This created a 2nd problem as I had the radon level tested and it's at 16, I wanted to put in a remediation system with a fan but with that plastic tile running into the sump, and the tile tied into holes in my walls, and a few of the blocks open on top where heating vents and things run upstairs, a fan for radon would draw conditioned air out of the basement rather than just create low pressure under the floor (the radon guys were remarkably like the interior waterproofing guys in this respect, I pointed this out and they still wanted to install anyways, to which I said no until I get rid of that interior drain tile so that the sump isn't tieing it into my walls). On the West side, the longest straight wall at about 45 feet, I have step cracks at the North corner as well as the South with the sump as previously mentioned. Water only came in once on this wall, however I believe the problem here is with soil pressure from the heavy clay here. During winter, a horizontal crack appears at the frost line that runs the whole length of the wall. It becomes more prominent throughout winter and then throughout spring and summer it slowly disappears, as I suspect the weight of the house settles it back down. There are several "columns" for lack of a better word on this wall, where the blocks are thicker and inward, which I suspect are the only reason the wall hasn't bowed and remained that way. The crack does go through those as well, and also disappears by fall. On the North side, step cracks in both corners, visable inside and outside above the foundation before the siding starts. Water had not entered here until the last major rain, and when it did it came in a big way. There was a 50 foot tree about 7 feet from this wall that I took down this year, I'm sure that was part of the problem. On the East side, there's a very nice deck, and unfortunately this is where the water is entering the worst. I was hopeful that there was a patio underneath that had sunk towards the house that I could perhaps have mudjacked to reduce this problem as I had with the driveway, but no go, all dirt and all running towards the house. Water enters the crawlspace and the basement here. If you're still with me, thanks for your patience and help in advance. I've had a few estimates, and all are far more than we can afford right now, so here's what my line of thinking was: about 20 years ago out of high school I worked briefly for a basement waterproofing company. They didn't use a backhoe, just cheap labor (us), and a group of 5 to 7 of us would dig down to the footer with an ordinary shovel, slap tar on the walls (which I now know is temporary), put some very heavy plastic over the tar, check the drain tile and backfill. I know I'm 20 years older so it's not going to be easy, but is there any reason I can't safely do something similar myself? I was thinking of doing this in 20 foot sections, using some vacation time. Call diggers hotline so I know where everything is, dig down to the footer with a shovel, haul about have the clay away to replace with peastone, cover the walls with an elastomeric material that should last 30 - 50 years rather than tar (I was looking at amesresearch.com), check the draintiles (I'm not sure how I would check them, I'm assuming they'll be clay), backfill and be done. I would just want to make sure most importantly of all that this is safe (I saw the pictures in this forum of someone's basement wall caved in), and then I'm a little sketchy on a few details: If I replace half my backfill with peastone, how high from the surface and out should the gravel be? How do I check the draintiles and know if I should leave them? I see many exterior systems calling for a "drainage board" or something external to protect the elastomeric material. Do I need that and is there someplace online I could order it? same question on the draintiles, if I need to replace, where can I get them? I looked at the black perforated stuff at the home improvement stores other folks have told me they've bought and used, but if you read the fine print it says it can't be more than 3 feet below the surface or it'll be crushed, evidently they make a heavier grade that looks the same but can handle the presure. I've also read reference to some type of filter-cloth for the draintiles to keep the dirt out. Is this necessary if my clay ones are okay? Where can I get it otherwise? what about the hard PVC draintile? I asked both companies that gave me an estimate what they use and they were both unaware of it as they just used the black stuff. Many questions, I know, and I apologize for my rambling stream of consciousness format. Any help or insight is greatly appreciated.
Don't worry about the wall caving in, worry about the bank collapsing and crushing you. You may want to explore options such as finding a company that will excavate for you, and you do the rest. If you decide to go it alone, I wish you well and will offer this advice.
As soon as you open an area wide enough place a sheet of 3/4" plywood in the hole. Cut 2by4's and brace the the heck out of it. Collapses start at the bottom so shore heavy low. You are correct in your thinking to haul all the clay. The frost line crack you mention is most likely caused by the expansive clay. Do not stock pile the clay on the bank next to the trench, very dangerous.
After you have a section excavated, Clean the walls by either thoroughly scraping or pressure washing. Look for cracks and repair with hydraulic cement. We like to use a waterproofing paint such as thoroseal as a first coat. Apply it very wet, you do not want it thick. This product will fill hairline cracks, and strengthen the parge coat by closing the pores of the cement. Allow this to thoroughly dry, usually a day or two, and than apply the elastomeric. You are right, far superior than tar. You will need to protect the waterproofing and a heavy 6 mil visquine will do that. However A dimpled polyethely drainage mat is better, because the dimples will not allow moisture to remain trapped behind the plastic. Google "System Platon", or "Superseal".
Don't worry about checking the drain tile, replace it. Use schedule 35 4" perforated pvc. Home depot and Lowes carry it. When laying the tile, holes face down. Install risers from the tile to the surface using schedule 35 4" solid for access to your footer tiles. Don't bother with the filter fabric. You will also have to replace the downspout lines if your downspouts are going into the ground. These sit above the footer tile and aur the first lines you will find when digging. Use solid 4" schedule 35.
For the backfill, the stone you are using has to be bigger than the holes in the drain tile. I'm not sure what size peastone is, we use washed #57 gravel. Do not use limestone. Backfill the entire trench, 4" from grade where cement will be poured, and a couple of feet from grade in earth areas. Lay filter fabric over the stone and top soil to grade. Good luck!
The soil,the bank side...can-could cave in/collapse at bottom as stated but can ALSO cave in from the middle and up high,sure could.
After using hydraulic cement in-over any cracks,loose-cracked parging,gaps etc,i`d recommend using a THICK mastic and NOT any thin-waterproofing-paint...there is a big difference. Your house,do what you like.
Water can,does get BEHIND a dimpled mat,regardless of some claims.If you backfill w/wheelbarrows(gravel) then the dimpled mat is NOT necessary,its just another cost...as long as one applies the visqueen correctly and isn`t using equipment to backfill and isn`t backfilling w/some-all of the same excavated soil and other garbage.
Also, if the existing tile is ok...no need to replace....would be just another unnecessary cost.Would not use any sort of black plastic perf-pipe.Filter cloth is also in my honest opinion just another cost/unnecessary. Your house,do what you like.
Any excavated area(s) where you may be putting concrete etc back then its best to backfill with ALL gravel...all the way up.
Jenkins called yesterday,said as soon as he dug out the clay,the inside walls DRIED up.
His house is about 4-5 years old,said there was NO parging on outside wall....zero. Builder had only applied THIN-damproofing which was barely visble,had worn off on clay when clay was backfilled.Bottom line,there was NO protection on the outside of the porous block walls,caused what you see on the inside walls and along the FLOOR-WALL joints in his basement.....just like MANY other HO`s
Another HO who posted here...Chad,also from OH did a smaller job/leak/exterior waterproofing w/a couple buddies.He said he had estimates as high as $23,000.He and his buddies did it for $2,000. This was couple years ago,he emailed me couple months ago and said all is well
Yes, you can DIY but you must be careful and fully aware of potential/possible problems which sometimes occur.Would also recommend you NOT leave the ditch OPEN any longer than necessary. Get it dug out,clean the wall,waterproof the cracks/wall etc and get it backfilled....immediately. Longer one leaves a ditch open the chances of it caving in increase,especially if it rains.
This HO got water in basement along floor-wall joint on the driveway-side http://www2.snapfish.com/thumb...122238283_111847456/ Job cost $2,175. He already TRIED mudjacking,money spent on that could have,should have gone to fixing-the-actual-problems. Gotta diagnose,correctly identify any-all problems BEFORE spending hundreds/thousands.
Thanks for the great responses wtrprfr1 and LicensedWaterproofR. A few follow-up questions if I may.... You both agree for the most part, except on the draintiles. I suppose if I dig down and they're intact, that's fine, but what if they're obviously broken? Is there a proper way to join PVC to the clay tiles? How wide should the trench be? I remember doing it fairly narrow like the 2nd link you included LWP (house with the pavers), but that was when I was younger and working with a group, I don't think I'd be that comfortable with such a narrow trench working alone in the back of my house. If I brace the trench wall with plywood and have 2x4s between it and the house, how do I clean and coat the wall with the 2x4s in the way (unless I remove them and do most of that work at the top of the trench with a roller brush on a pole)? Thanks again for your time and expertise, I really appreciate it.
Tiles...lets say you waterproof in sections,20' at a time, if there are several tiles that are broken then pop them out/bust them w/a brick hammer and pull `pieces out and cut-to-fit a piece of pvc and lay it where ya popped out broken tiles.
Width of trench...depends on type of soil yer digging in AND depth to footing and a few other underground possibilities one could run into.We`re usually between 18-24" and 'on alert' of a possible cave in at-ALL-times,thankfully it doesn`t happen much but all it takes to smash ya,possibly klll ya is ONE cave in,NEVER fall asleep/NEVER get comfortable in any trench.Get it dug out,get it sealed/waterproofed CORRECTLY and get the heck out and get it backfilled/gravel right away.
For a homeowner who wants to DIY,the wider the better! Because they`re very likely not going to get things as as fast. IMO you should NOT be doing this alone.
Braces.....well, there ya go. Thats one reason, having to play around and remove the 2 x 4`s to scrape and brush wall where 2 x 4`s were and then having to do the same when its time to apply mastic where 2 x 4`s are,and then ya still have to put the visqueen on wall.
Couple things to watch out for..... if ya see/run into some bricks,wood,loose-sandy soil that is on-the-BANK-SIDE.Seeing some of this crap can signal a possible cave in.
Same goes for a possible sprinkler-line/hose that might be 3-6' away from the basement wall taht runs along the side/back of house. Have seen a LEAKY,dripping underground sprinkler hose CAUSE a cave in. It had created an underground VOID-in-the-soil,several feet away from where trench was being dug.
One more time....always be ready for possible cave in,have a quick way to get out of the trench or UNDERSTAND ya might have a cave in and need to quickly move to END-of-trench to help avoid most of soil that could crush ya up against wall.Don`t let this thought outta yer head while yer in da hole.Thats why playing around,taking out all tiles when its not necessary is a waste of time and could help cause a cave in.Don`t get drunk the night before/don`t smoke any funny stuff etc,don`t take THIS job for granted,it could cost you.
There are NO VISIBLE cracks on INSIDE basement wall at-near corner but that does not mean there aren`t some cracks on the OUTSIDE of the block wall....see first 3 pictures
THIS.....is where.....WATER...first enters into the blocks,this is why there is mold/efflorescence on inside wall at-near corner.Water gets into blocks through this crack and another crack around-the-corner and there was also a horizontal crack down low,at the top of the first block off footing.Homeowner ONLY gets water inside,on basement floor at floor-wall joint.
Ya should be able to see how WIDE trench is http://www2.snapfish.com/slide...=122238283_111847456 Its approx 22" wide on this house and is tapered/gradually sloped in towards bottom. If you have all clay like this house and no underground sprinkler hoses etc then you could dig it like this but YOU should dig it a bit wider at top and middle,then slope it in a little near bottom of trench....be a bit safer.
Pic 17....heavy az CLAY,when wet/saturated its even heavier and it PUSHES against basement walls,can most certainly CAUSE cracks,can cause existing hairline cracks to WIDEN,can cause a wall to bow inward.Roots can also cause cracks/widening of cracks etc.Will any inside drain tile or pressure relief system remove-relieve THIS exterior pressure/weight? Nope.
Pic 18....pretty much done.Where is the ruined landscaping sooo many yap about?
On the other hand, sometimes it may be mostly SAND so you`ll wanna have a bit different game plan,dig it WIDER....sometimes sloping it inward IF it isn`t too deep to footing OR sometimes you`ll have to 'step' the dig/soil http://www2.snapfish.com/thumb...122238283_111847456/
This was mostly SAND. So as i dug it down a bit and saw it was most likely going to be all sand/all the way down then i CHANGED the way the TOP and middle was first dug....i WIDENED the top and middle,then sloped it in near bottom. 50 yrs old and smoke 3 packs a day lolol.If my old huff `n puff az can do this then those inside quacks can as well
One more thing,dimpled membranes.... Yeah,it can be 'attached' or placed against a basement wall but it doesn`t STICK/totally adhere to the wall like visqueen will if the visqueen if put on correctly.And as ive said, if backfilling w/equipment and crap soil then ya prolly should use this AFTER applying visqueen. Here what can/does happen,we`ve seen same thing ourselves on new/newer homes http://www.inspectionnews.net/...roofing-dscn5982.jpg
Water can get BEHIND dimpled membranes and if the wall was damproofed and there is a crack or loose-cracked parging or other openings then its gonna leak/allow water in basement http://www.mcphersonpainting.com/prep.htm
Pic 1. THEY say, ....removal of failing flashing and below grade deteriorated rubber membranes
2. below grade wall showing FAILED membrane
3,4. see THIS? lolol They didn`t use hydraulic cement in/over/around where the LINES go through the basement wall...hello? No THICK mastic.
see pic 4? Same incompetence! To assume placing a dimpled membrane against basement walls will keep all underground water off the wall/that no water can get behind the membrane is lack of expertise. .."another common problem are large voids between tilt up wall joints that allow water to enter freely from below grade.As you can see,the wall was sealed with backrod and urethane compound above grade but the space between the tilt up wall was never sealed below grade.Since all of this was covered up with dirt no one was the wiser.The building owners suffered large puddles of water on their floors everytime it rained"
How did this kind of crap/incompetence get passed on inspection? Was it even inspected? And then some wonder why they get sued.
You use fernco's to join the pvc.to the clay tile. These are rubber boots, that are made to connect 4" clay to 4" pvc. You have to remove the shoring as you work and replace as you go. You should always have someone up top to keep an eye on things while you work. The drainage mat works great! The dimples create a drainage path, so if moisture gets behind it, it has a way to drain to the footer tiles. In my original response, I stated to use this after the cracks have been rpaired, and the wall waterproofed. The pvc. will cost you a couple of hundred bucks at most so it is well worth it. Makes it easier to snake in the future if need be.
Posted this at the end of June and I"m now finally less than 2 weeks away from this project. I rented a mini excavator for a week and have two weeks off of work to complete the project and one person who's working along with me. I'm still waffling on the drainage mat, though. The item I can't get past is that I clean, patch, and coat the walls with the elastomeric coating for an unbroken barrier, than I make holes in said barrier to hold the mat on the wall. Won't moisture find it's way through those holes?
If your going to use some kind of dimpled membrane/rubber-poly whatever, you can 'place it/set it' right against basement wall instead of 'attaching it' to the wall.
Recommend you use a 6 mil visqueen over thick mastic FIRST,better to have something STICK to the mastic (visqueen)....THEN PLACE the drainage mat up against the wall.There really is NOT a need for this mat IF one is very careful when backfilling AND is backfilling w/all gravel.We`ve NEVER used anything like Delta MS etc etc,30 yrs.
Don`t believe the many claims,one being that water can`t/won`t get BEHIND dimpled membrane,thats nonsense....all one has to do is look at the Mcpherson painting pictures again http://www.mcphersonpainting.com/prep.htm
Another false claim is that it relieves hydr pressure against a wall,nonsense! lol The kinds of pressures/weights that CAUSE basement walls problems could never be 'relieved' by any drainage mat/membrane.It`s the soil,water-in-the-soil,roots,porch-footings,concrete slabs etc that cause many cracks/bowed walls/leaks etc and no dimpled membrane removes/relieves these.
Say again,if you want to use this stuff you could seal the wall first of course....hydraulic cement/thick mastic/visqueen and then cut-to-fit anything else and place-it against the wall,have someone hold it while you carefully begin backfilling w/gravel which will then hold it against wall once you get enough in.
Expand`g/contract`g clay.....roots etc.Now, how is putting THIS against basement wall 'relieving' any pressure/clay/roots etc http://www.deltams.com/ And, in 5th para where it says,'The membrane is vacuum formed....this unique design allows ANY water getting past dimpled membrane to fall freely to footing'
Well....THATS just it!! lol Any water that gets BEHIND the mebrane can come THROUGH the wall,come through any crack in the wall,any rod hole,cracked parging etc as it...'flows freely down to footing'....hello??? Say again,look at Mcpherson PICTURES above!! Water got BEHIND rubber mat and there WERE OPENINGS in the darn wall so it doesn`t matter if 'water flows freely down to footing' when you don`t seal/waterproof the exterior of the wall CORRECTLY!
Then where it says --Product application They just said....didn`t we just read THEM say 'any water that gets PAST the dimpled membrane...' ...and NOW they say,'the membrane keeps water from EVER touching the wall...'. NO sir,no it does NOT.I`m not saying it can`t be useful to some-degree but lets be 100% honest about this stuff eh
Do they think if there was a dimpled membrane against the outside of these basement walls there wouldn`t be any problems? lol There wouldn`t be leaks,the wall wouldn`t be bowing in, etc http://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/...y/photos/photos.html
SLogick.... and make sure you know where/how any underground LINES run sir.
Posts: 87 | Location: MI | Registered: 31 July 2009
Thanks LicensedWaterproofRR, After I finish tearing apart my deck on Monday (the worst part about this project), I'll be calling diggers hotline. I'll post back in a few weeks and let you know how it went.
Back again with another question... I've called around and I can't find the #57 washed gravel recommended by wtrprfr1. I have one source near me that has #1 washed stone, varying in size from 3/4 to 1 inch that they tell me is what people normally use for this purpose. Is that good enough, or should I keep looking for #57? Thanks again for your help!
When backfilling w/that mini-exc...still want to be careful,easy-does-it. Pour `stone in trench and try not hitting the wall/visqueen. You can call me if you like,just let me know
Thanks LicensedWaterproofRR, T minus 16 hours to start and another problem... The Schedule 35 (or SDR-35) in perforated form is no where to be found at the local stores. Lowes and Menards have it unperforated, no one (adding Home Depot to the list) can produce a part number in their system for even ordering the perforated. Everyone carries a thinner version, marked ASTM 2729 in perforated form. Lowes lists it as having a 3000 lb crush capacity, is that strong enough, or should I find some plumbing supply stores to see if anyone has the SDR-35?
we haven`t used what you described but if you can step on it without it collapsing then it should be a-ok. Just don`t use the black plastic perforated THIN,WEAK CHEAP-O crap that many buidlers use and apparently many city insp`s think is ok,lol! Good luck sir.
Posts: 87 | Location: MI | Registered: 31 July 2009
