First, I am very grateful to the people that help, especially LicensedWaterproofer who really seems to be very helpful.

Anyway, I am first time homeowner out in central Illinois with relatively small issue, however, I want to finish off the basement and get rid of any mold/etc for my 2 young boys to use the room as a family area.

I have a cinder block basement, 6 ft below grade on 2 1/2 sides. done in 1975. I get small amount of water pooling alongside 1 1/2 of the walls (below grade walls) only during heavy heavy rains. After reading many of the posts here, I checked some things and pulled off the cheap paneling alongside the block wall.

I've also really taken a look at my sump pump, thinking that I might need to replace it (confirmed that it works,but thought maybe a 'better' one might be better).

Anyway, I noticed that the pit for the sump pump was solid. After doing some reading, they were all stating that sump pump pits should be perforated. This would help pull up water under the foundation.

Since it does not appear that I have a perforated pump pit, how much of a proplem is this? DO I need to put a new pit in? What kind of cost would I expect to pay for that? Can I just pull up other pit and replace or really need a plumper/foundation guy to take care of?

About ready to try hose test for walls, but concerned about pump pit.

Thanks,

Tony

hey wolf,

k,small amount of water along 1 1/2 walls

after pulling off paneling, what if anything do you see? do you see any mold/mildew?

any efflorescence?

any small/hairline vertical/step/horizontal cracks? even if you don`t, it does NOT mean they aren`t any cracks or other openings on the OUTSIDE of the hollow-block wall.

if you do, then this is part/all of why water is entering into the hollow block wall and then will see it in basement on floor at/near cold-joint...cove...isolation joint.

take a hose `n soak against the 1 1/2 walls, let it run up to an hour, if you get water on basement floor then there are crack(s)/other openings on the Outside of wall `n you`ll need to waterpoof `n backfill correctly to stop/prevent water from entering.

if you don`t get water in, then part/all of problem could be direct 'above ground' openings that allow water to enter and eventually get into the hollow block and onto the floor. These direct openings can be open mortar joints,loose-cracked-porous bricks, caulking-replacement needs of basement windows, first floor windows(any window that has a vent-screen....new or old), openings around doors/thresholds,even where a central a/c hose enters a house etc.

Sump pumps ONLY help-control amount of water under the basement floor, has nothing to do with water entering through outside openings

is the house below sea level or in a valley?

hope the sump has a good cover...radon gas 'could' enter into the basement through sumps.

i`d do the water-test first to be sure, take your time doing it, don`t rush, you need to be certain BEFORE spending **,soak against ALL areas of the walls...just like a heavy/long rain

Thanks for the reply.

Behind paneling.... wall had been painted...along bottom, 1 1/2 blocks up was paint flaking and obvious damp block look. Along wall, higher was either water 'impressions' or mold (not expert). I did see 1 hairline crack that was a zig-zag, but did not see any seepage through crack during hose test.

Water hose test did cause some weeping about 5' up wall, was able to see very light 'waterfall' down wall. However, did not see actual crack that was coming from. Was in corner and definate dray spot above, then water/wet below. I was able to dig a little (only about 2' outside corner, will do more tomorrow. Also, saw seeping/weeping through 1 of the bottom holes caused by the cement retainer used to hold the wood frame strip in place.

Please tell me your thoughts on the following line of reasoning...
I've been through the used car sales guys coming out and trying to sell various inside fixes and just couldn't bring myself to spend the money and not solve the problem. Anyway, they all kept trying to tell me that there was hydrostatic pressure under the foundation and was coming up and causing the leak from the inside side of the footer/foundation joint. So, if any truth to it, then not having the sump pump perforated, and therefore reducing the water pressure under the foundation, would lead to increased water pressure under the foundation and increased likelihood of seepage.(?)

Now, granted, I am pretty sure I have an exterior crack that I need to dig and find (thanks to your posts and the water hose test), but still seems to me (unexperienced me) that installing the perforated sump pump would be a good idea, if not too pricey.

Also, what range would I expect to pay for someone to do exterior fix, assuming that I have a clogged drainage tile or something similar? Roughly 40 ft and 6' below grade?

Thanks again,

Tony

wolf,

from what you`ve said, no doubt much if not all problems are...outside.

and when doing the water test, one will NOT see water come Through a vertical or step crack on inside, you`ll just see it come onto floor where bottom of wall and floor meet...cold joint.Thing is...water Enters into the hollow block from outside through cracks etc.

was there plastic against wall behind the paneling you took down?

OK, here is the deal with an....accumulation of water Under the floor-

first...do you have quite a few cracks in the bsmt floor, and are they large/wide cracks?

if you have any, do you get/see water coming UP through floor cracks?

and, do you see any part of the bsmt floor heaving up? trust me....you`d NOTICE

If NOT, then you have no problem-hyd pressure under the floor!

In fact, very FEW do.Many of these salespeople like to call it...hydrostatic pressure but, its just an 'accumulation of water' under the floor due to either a blockage...which can often be freed by snaking through storm trap etc OR, house is built below sea level/high water table and will need a sump pump(s) to....control this water...under the floor.

You already have a sump so, it should be handling any increases in water under the floor. And many homes already have drain tile under the floor.

You gotta remember, almost all of these salespeople and the companies they work for, they WANT to/RATHER sell you an Inside system....this is what they do. Of course their gonna try `n explain/confuse homeowners that the supposed problems are...inside, under the floor.They do NOT want to hand dig on the Outside, its much riskier, and some do not carry the correct Insurance to do this type of work or, they do NOT have the labor-force to hand dig, Outside work is a TON tougher, its not a little more difficult its a boat load more difficult! If an Inside system was what most needed i would have been installing it a long time ago...its not!!!

We all as homeowners are going to have 'some' amount of water under the bsmt floor, period. Has nothing to do with what their bs`g you about hydr pressure, its NONSENSE. Did you see/notice the AMOUNT of complaints agst many-not all....inside companies? What does that tell ya? And many are BBB members, they pay the BBB...so its my opinion AND others that, not ALL complaints are noted when doing a BBB search, least not with all members.

If it`ll make you feel better then do what you want in regards to sump/perf tile etc...Not me.

Cost for 40' x approx. 6' deep? thats a (1)one day job and should be $3,200-3,500. Thats having all soil hauled away, sealing any cracks etc w/hydraulic cement, replacing any tile IF needed, tar/roofing cement over bsmt wall w/6 mil visqueen over that `n backfilling with all peastone to within a few inches of grade, top soil rest.

Call me if you like, will expalin this `n other things. There have been quite a few folks reading these posts who were told the SAME thing as you evidently have. They found that these $6,000-$25,000 estimates from inside salespeople was NOT what they needed, lol, hardly!

Thanks again for the information.

The floor has a lanolium (sp?) square tile over it, so not sure if there are cracks or not. I do not live below sea level, but do live on (next to and above) a lake.

Question on the hose test... IF my footing drain tile was working and I had a few minor cracks in the wall, would I still expect to see any seepage? Or only if drainage tile is clogged?

Thanks x100,

Tony

wolf,

you`d know if the floor was heaving up, so evidently not.

answer to question....IF....there are any cracks in the wall, YES, you `n others MOST likely will see seepage, depending on the...size of the crack(s) `n other outside openings in hollow block wall and on the amount of rain.

as for the drain tile, contrary to popular belief .... the Outside tile laid along the footing has NOTHING (zero) to do with water that enters through cracks `n other openings in walls....yup, thats right.

See, soil is against the wall, when it gets wet...rain/sprinkler system...water goes into the soil and as it moves through soil it goes sideways `n down. So when there is a crack/opening in a basement wall it can enter and wind up on the bsmt floor. For block walls it enters into `n through these openings into the hollow block/cores and stays inside the wall and because of gravity, goes down through the rest of the hollow block wall and usually(not always) comes inside...onto floor, at the cold joint/cove, yep...where the bottom of wall meets the floor.

The tile is laid next to the footing so it has NO effect on the way/nature of water wicking/percolating downward through the soil to a lower level,tile cannot stop/prevent water from entering cracks etc in basement walls, this is how `n why most/not all basement leak, Outside openings.

Allowing water to enter obviously then increases the liklihood of mold/efflorescence/paint peeling/more humid conditions in basement etc.

Goes back to what i`ve been trying to inform....its about cracks `n other openings in basement walls and ABOVE basement walls, open mortar joints,openings around basement windows,doors etc.

Or, openings (cracks etc) in basement floors. Openings in floors can allow water that accumulates under the floor to rise up through these openings `n onto the floor. For high water table areas/below sea level, this is where sump pump(s) come into play. They can control the water level under the floor before it can accumulate `n rise up onto floor. But sumps have nothing to do with why water enters through...lol, outside openings.

And all these openings can allow radon gas to enter. They say drunk drivers kill about 17,000 every year `n radon gas kills about 21,000 every yr. We hear alot about drunk driving and very little about radon gas.

One more lil thing about some of these inside salespeople/companies who like to tell you about...hydrostatic pressure under the floor. Some evn make a big point about it to bs you into thinking this pressure is why yer getting water on the floor or will soon have supposed big problems.....bs.

Think about this, a 4" thick basement floor and a 4" thick driveway.....how often have you ever heard masonry guys tell you your driveway got cracks/heaved up due to hydrostatic pressure.....yeah, exactly. Not saying there isnt any possible pressure under a floor in high water table areas, just its more of a rarity than this overkill of the phrase.See, for some inside salespeople its a total lack of knowledge & sell sell sell! I say, lets open this entire subject up in open-forum, a court, lol and lets see who is bs`g and who is trying to inform of ALL the facts/possibilities.

Hope this made some sense

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofer,

I have a similar problem in my basement. I got water on the basement floor so I took down paneling to find a vertical crack in the cinder block wall. Of course we get water coming in during heavy rain. I also have some type of metal trim around the bottom of the whole basement that the home inspector told us was a old internal waterproofing system but I'm not sure. Also all the paint is pealing off the walls and I think I have evphoresense but I'm not quite sure what that is, is it toxic?

I'm not really sure how to handle the problem. If I seal up the crack on the inside water will continue to come in I assume and pool on the floor. I can't dig up the ground on the outside to check for external cracks because it is the side of my house where the driveway runs and I would have to bust that out first. On a side note the driveway is cracked in that area and is no tilted towards the house so all the water runs to the house instead of away. Could I get that piece of the slab some how lifted up so the water doesn't pool right against the house? Any information you could provide on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

nn,

more than likely, the metal-trim is what many inside co`s use/put against the wall.

wherever there was/IS a crack/other opening on the OUTSIDE of wall then, water is STILL entering through these cracks etc and into the hollow-block. This is why many will continue to see mold, effliorescence, paint peeling etc on their block walls AFTER an Inside system was done. Gotta go 'outside' to actually-waterproof these cracks.And just because some do NOT see a crack on the Inside of wall in basement does NOT mean there isn`t a crack(s) on the Outside, this is where water first enters the hollow block

-efflorescence http://www.marshallconcrete.com/41

http://na.hansonbrick.com/en/techNotes/pdf/efflorescence.pdf

-mold
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/molds/images/moldguide.pdf

Yes, water will still get INTO the block from the outside no matter what is done inside.

Yes, you can 'dig up' on the Outside even where there is a driveway/patio etc. What we do is saw-cut PART of cement slab in order to allow the room to hand-dig along the house down to footing....Depending on depth to footing. Usually it`s 18"-24" wide-apron by length needed. Having concrete/driveway up against a wall does not seal/waterproof the crack(s) so, the ENTRY point is always there for water,insects `n even radon gas to enter.

How do termites enter a home?
http://www.mipca.org/Termites.htm

"they can find their way into a structure through an opening as small as 1/32 of an inch"

Radon gas...how-where does it enter?
http://www.epa.gov/radon/pubs/physic.html#Character

3.Characteritics & Sources "radon gas can enter a home from the SOIL Through cracks in concrete floors and walls,floor drains,sump pumps,construction joints, and tiny cracks or pores in Hollow-Block walls"

http://cbs2chicago.com/health/local_story_034173519.html

As for your slab....you can anything you wish BUT imo you should waterproof/fix the PROBLEM(s), the ENTRYWAYS where water actually enters the hollow-block

Think...evidently, an Inside has already been done and....was NOT the ANSWER, the answer(s)-remedy is...outside.

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_157170030.html


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05EFDB...30A25750C0A962958260

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofer,

"Licensed Waterproofer" I'd like to thank you for the infomation you have posted on this board. A lot of it has answered questions I had concerning my basement and related problems.

We have a 30 year old home with a basement that presents continuing problems. Each time I've had a plumber or other (crack repair)specialist out to look at the leakage problems, they have all commented on the smaller sump pump pit.

They point out that these pits are usually deeper and wider. We even had to buy a smaller sump pump so that the float mechanism had room to work.

I've been told that the pit should be widened and made deeper and that this will lower the water table under the foundation. Question: Is this true? Would it be worth the expense?

wedjat,

no problem, happy to try `n help

a sump pump controls the water level under the bsmt floor, are you having problems with water coming UP through cracks/openings in the floor ONLY?

and/or, if your bsmt walls are visible (no paneling/drywall) do you see/have any mold/efflorescence/cracks etc on wall(s)?

do you have block, poured or brick basement walls? i see where the 'average' elevation of Springfield is about 1,300 ft 'Above' sea level.

here is an example of problem a lady in Grosse Pt Woods just had....water coming UP through several openings in floor,different areas of bsmt floor, only upon heavy rains. She has paneling on bsmt walls.I ran a water/hose test on the Outside of these areas for her, took over 2 hours, she did NOT get ANY water in. I recommended she call honest/exp. plumber to SNAKE the storm trap and sure enough, it had a blockage. Problem solved for approx. $150.

NO on the question about water coming up through the basement floor. The only time the basement had actual flooded after heavy storms was when we found that the former owner had put in too large a sump pump that couldn't work.

We do have cracks in the walls and most were "fixed" with the injectable (epoxy resin) expanding foam.I suspect some of these fixes were homemade and not done by a professional.

During very heavy/extended rains several of the old repaired cracks still weep water.

I've been told that these basement walls were poured in aluminum molds and that the basement floor was poured after the walls.

wedjat,

if some of the cracks leak then why aren`t the so called experts recommending to waterproof the cracks, ya know.

a sump will not stop/prevent water that is entering through the cracks/wall or 'above ground/above wall' openings.

and, is there a storm trap is your basement?

We have a problem that seems to be related to the topics discussed on this thread so I thought I'd ask our questions here.

We have a home that was moved in the 1950s so the basement dates to that period. Painted cinderblock walls, a sump with a drain tile that appears to be clay--not sure if the drain tile is outside or inside the house. To our knowledge we did not have any water issues (as long as we had our gutter extensions in place and after installing a battery backup for our sump pump), so we were proceeding with a basement remodeling project. Only after our framing and electrical runs were finished, we noticed some moisture on the floor just behing the framing.

Long story short--after 3 different waterproofing contractors came to our house and recommended interior drain tile, a 4th contractor came and helped us discover that the water was actually mostly along a wall that is not exposed, but under our porch (not sure why it took someone else to help us figure this out, but it was interesting that the other waterproofers did not even look outside). The water was a few feet down the adjacent wall which was exposed. Visible dark areas up the wall suggest that water had collected in the cinderblock and caused some mildew/mold to grow. Further investigation revealed that by extending a nearby downspout extension and by filling a rather large chipmunk/skunk hole, we were able to dry up our basement even during some recent heavy rains.

So now we are wondering how we should best proceed. Here are a couple of ideas that we had. Anyone care to comment?

1) Cautious approach with most up front expense:
Go ahead and install interior drain tile before proceeding with basement finishing project.

2) Proceed with basement finishing project without installing interior drain tile. Install some fake heat vents around the room, allowing us to achieve access to the wall and studs. Use a moisture meter with extension cables to periodically check the wall, studs and floor for moisture, at least until we feel comfortable that everything is relatively dry. FYI--we are thinking we will use icynene foam insulation since it is impervious to moisture but is able to pass water vapor so we can dry the wall interior to the room.

3) If we go with option #2, perhaps it makes sense to attempt to snake or otherwise unclog the existing drain tile, wherever it may be. Does this make sense with clay tile? One waterproofer I asked said no, but of course he may have been a bit biased.

Any other ideas? I would greatly appreciate any advice on this matter. Our remodeling project has been on hold for weeks while we attempt to sort this out.

I have a brick wall that leaks water into my basement (above grade) at two specific places whenever it rains heavily with high wind. I notice that there are two weep holes outside above where I see water marks. Could water be entering through the weep holes or could other mortar problem be the cause? Is is advisable to close these weep holes?

No no a thousand times no! Water entering weep holes is highly unlikely, but the purpose of the weep holes is to allow water that may penetrate the brick to fall in the cavity behind the brick and be directed by flashing to the weep holes, by which it should exit.

I suspect either cracked mortar joints, or perhaps very porous brick, which can act almost like a sponge in absorbing water. The water which gets behind the brick should, however, be directed out the weep holes, so if it is finding its way to your basement, I suspect that either the flashing within the wall has failed (not likely), or the weep holes have become clogged (possible), or the water is entering below the flashing and weep holes. Another possibility is the flashing, or lack of it, above windows on the floor above the basement, allowing water to enter.

Why don't you try Licensed Waterproofing's hose test...train a garden hose on one small area at a time, and see when the water enters the basement. Give it some time, and maybe only do one small spot each day. Don't be in a hurry. The result MAY tell you where the problem is, and then the cure should be easy.