LicensedWaterproofer - and anyone else that may be able to help me - PLEASE HELP!
I have a basement with 8 inch concrete block walls. The house is about 50 years old.
The basement has been drylocked and is dry and "waterproof" in all areas except one corner and part of the side about a 4 feet from the corner. Directly above the span of this 4 feet is my main water line.
After heavy rains my basement leaks at the mortar between the first 4inch block (not hollow) and the 1st 8inch block (hollow) at the floor. It will become dry if there is no rain... this leads me to believe it is not the water main.
My neighbor has a downspout cut off about a foot above ground - I believe it's drainage goes underground and flows towards my foundation.
I have installed underground pvc pipe running to the street so the gutters drain to the street. I have installed a "french drain" about 2 feet underneath the earth's surface about 4 feet away from my house's foundation. I installed a frost proof woodford water valve in place of the old valve because I feared there was a split pipe between the block. I've installed window well covers and I have added 16 tons of topsoil to improve the grading and slope of my yard.
There are no storm sewers in my block of the neighborhood and my yard seems to collect the water from the side street as it tries to turn the corner and follow the drainage ditch down the main street. (streets are about 30 to 40 feet from house)
The basement leaks nowhere else but this one corner and there is no leaks coming through the floor just the mortar in this one corner. My city public utililites director informed me that he is unaware of any high water tables - and I have checked online topography maps and haven't found and underground water channels within a few blocks of my property.
I think I've ruled out - underground water, split faucets, and broken water mains.
What should I do? I do not want to install a sump pump - because obviously this won't be solving the problem of the water being there in the first place. I need help on how to find out exactly where the water is coming from so I can stop the source.
Thanks in advance for your time and help. - I can supply pictures of the block for additional info.
Posts: 13 | Location: Ohio, USA | Registered: 05 January 2007
see if i have this right, you have a block wall, drylocked means NIL to me, sorry Ya have 1 area, a corner and within 4' or so of the same corner that....gets water entering after a heavy rain....right? It has or has NOT been waterproofed correctly on the Outside? Brick house?
If not... your problem(S) will most-likely be... a vertical/step or horizontal crack on the Outside of this corner area and/or, an opening(S) ABOVE ground--ABOVE the bsmt wall on the Outside. Please note---there are times when a HO has a 2+ PART problem! So BOTH will need to be defined and fixed....correctly.
Did you say.... the water line goes THROUGH the basement wall in this area? IF so, often on the outside of the bsmt wall where ANY line enters there will be an opening(s)/gap/space, this is also where water can FIRST enter into a block wall, it`ll stay inside the cells of blocks as gravity takes it down-through the lower courses where most will see it enter INSIDE at/near the cold joint or, if last course is solid, just above/at top at first solid block off bsmt floor.
Same goes for any crack(s) in bsmt wall on Outside, water will enter into the cells of wall through a crack, stay inside and enter inside the basement at/near cold joint. Just because you/others may NOT see a crack on the Inside does NOT mean there isn`t a crack on the Outside, happens quite a bit.
Here`s what i would do if i were you...run a HOSE, a water-test at ground level, on the outside of where you get water inside.
Run the water at/near full blast, don`t let the water wet-soak anything ABOVE ground level, repeat, do not.
Soak the ground right next to basement wall, all along the corner and 4' or whatever for up to 45 minutes or so, well, or until you get water inside this MIGHT happen within 10 minutes or so, just depends on type of soil and size of possible crack/other opening on outside of bsmt wall... below ground.
Ok, so IF you get ANY water in then you DO have an opening(s) on the Outside of bsmt wall, where you ran the water. Waterproof `n backfill that part of wall-corner correctly.
If you do NOT get any water in after 45 minutes or so, then you don`t have a problem/crack etc below ground and the opening(s) that are allowing water to enter will be ABOVE ground, some include open mortar joints(some of these are very small/hairline), cracks in bricks, POROUS-Cheap bricks that don`t need any crack to allow water in when they become saturated/soaked on heavy-long rains!....also, any opening around ANY window, basement window-first floor window etc, any loose siding or seams in siding, openings where ANY service-line enters your house and so on.
Again, if you don`t get any water in after doing the below ground water/hose test CORRECTLY, then if you want, you can begin soaking-spraying the above ground openings. Spray them like a heavy rain would, starting at the lowest points just above grade and working your way UP, to roof if necessary. Yes, any opening in roof valleys also can be a point of entry and,some HO`s will NOT see any water on the first floor, only in basement...doesn`t sound-like your problem, just tossing this potential opening out to others.
Again, BEFORE you spend ONE CENT, run the hose test! The water is not BIASED
By "Drylocked" - I mean painted on the interior with Drylock paint (purchased at Lowes), also I filled many cracks in the interior mortar with new mortar in a tube - or caulked mortar - before painting with the Drylock.
I have do have a feeling that there are cracks still on the outside wall... There were lots of "step cracks" or veritical and horizontal cracks in the mortar in this area of the basement - I think the foundation had settled and caused this problem... I fixed the interior, but it didn't solve the exterior problems, obviously.
I'm not sure what you mean by "don't let the water 'hot-soak'" - can you please explain that term...
I will try laying a hose next to the foundation (within a foot of) the block at the surface and let it run....
Suppose it is a hole where the water main comes into the house.... is that something I should be digging around or near, or should I call the city to come out and inspect for a possible water main issue?
This message has been edited. Last edited by: bmf02,
Posts: 13 | Location: Ohio, USA | Registered: 05 January 2007
ok, if you saw step-vertical cracks on inside then they are on the Outside. So thats at least part of the problem, most likely all but again, any openings Above ground will need to be sealed/fixed as well. If they aren`t any above ground thats good! lol One less thing to do-worry about.
ok, so the water line DOES enter through the bsmt wall...again, usually there will be a gap/space where the line enters through the bsmt wall, not always, either way...sure sounds like you have cracks and so it`ll need to be waterproofed `n backfilled correctly on outside, ONLY in this area at this point-in-time.
Where the water line enters, that too can be easily fixed when doing the waterproofing, not a problem. We hand-dig around them all the time, just know where it is, where its located when your digging. If your water line had/has a leak then i`d guess your bill went UP recently. THAT has nothing to do with the fact ya have cracks `n maybe opening/gap where line enters on outside which need to be waterproofed.
Only other ADDITIONAL possibility is a dripping/leaking water line where it goes THROUGH-the-inside-of-the-blocks. Doesn`t happen often but is possible.
You`d still need those cracks etc waterproofed! How long--how many linear feet is this problem area? i can try and give you a heads up on a fair price if you like.
Oh....i highly doubt the CITY will help-do anything IF its an opening/gap where line enters the wall...UNLESS....lol, they were over there recently screwing around with it, THEN maybe you can put part of cost on them. Here in Michigan, the gas company WILL, or at least recently used to help pay for a gas-line that they recently messed with and now leaks, allows water in HO`s basement due to THEM not sealing it.
I'm such a DIY type person - I've racked my brains over this for the last 5 months. So I'll probably do the digging myself or with a friend
--- It's basically one corner from a window well about 6 feet from the corner - to the window well on the adjacent wall 6 feet from the corner. so probably about 12 feet of excavation - about 7 or 8 feet down to the 4inch block (about a hundred square feet) ---- where the water is coming in.... Not that I think the water is coming in that deeply - moreso I expect it's coming in probably 2 feet under the surface ---
btw -- I sealed the above ground cracks in the foundation with the tube mortar as well--- but only about a foot down....
Even if I do fill these cracks, still seems like an awful lot of water to be pushing up next to the foundation - I hope it doesn't create problems in other areas, just fixing one area....seems like if the water is there it's going to try to find the weakest point in the foundation and come that way - - - any solutions on eliminating the water?
I'm thinking about installing 6inch gutters and getting more involved with my neighbors "ungrounded" downspout....
This message has been edited. Last edited by: bmf02,
Posts: 13 | Location: Ohio, USA | Registered: 05 January 2007
fixing/waterproofing one(1) corner or 1 part of a wall/1 wall etc has NEVER in all these years caused ANY problem anywhere else. BUT--- if you-others have CRACKS somewhere else then its most likely going to leak where these cracks are, at some point in time. yeppers...
Again, if you/others have say, a horizontal crack and a few other vertical cracks just a little further away from an area that was just waterproofed, it can absolutely begin to leak. Sure, there are crack(s) that are still open, not waterproofed so, upon decent or heavy rains they could allow water to begin to enter, thats NOT the fault of waterproofing 1 corner,1/2 wall, thats cuz what i just said lol, still having cracks in other parts of bsmt wall(s)
as for the windows, this is first ya mentioned them so, they TOO could be part of problem. any small,whatever size opening around a window,a window sill etc can also allow water in.
and small openings can allow alot of water in, have shown many HO`s how much water can enter through lil openings with a water test, just like on a heavy-long rain. Some of these smaller openings can allow GALLONS of water in, so ya know
12' isnt much, 6' deep? small job and can`t give a price-per-foot on small jobs. Block window well????? If block wells i`d recommend knocking em out to be certain the parts of bsmt-wall where block well NOW meets is waterproofed, risky NOT to do parts where any block window well meets bsmt wall. Ok, probably $1,175 (going up soon).... thats for those who live near ya and, there probably laugh at 'low' cost. They want MORE! lol Thats all peastone backfill, thickest asphalt, all cracks/openings filled w/hydraulic cement, replace any broken tile(thats NOT your problem)with pvc, 6 mil visqueen, haul all soil away and take about 3 to 3 1/2 hours, depends on kind of soil, roots and other possible chtt builder backfilled with in area to be excavated, we are ANIMALS when it comes to getting most holes dug out
You and 1 buddy should be able to get it done within a day save quite a bit too. If you have someone to pick up/haul soil away that`ll be one cost. But rest isnt too bad, you can have peastone delivered, 12' x 6' you`ll need about 3 yards 2 50# cans of thick asphalt roofing cement,hydraulic cement,visquen, most likely wont need tiles unless ya brake em when you get neat footing, not that much. So, NOT incl`g hauling the soil away(my guys chg from $225-300+), it should be about $250 pay your buddy something and there ya go.
Let's say I dig up my around my foundation and patch and waterproof the outside walls ---
That still doesn't solve the problem - having all the water against the walls in the first place --- and won't that add to hydrostatic pressure against the walls causing bowing etc if the water no longer comes through the walls?
Do most houses have this much water running down to along the walls after a hard rain? Where does the water go if it doesn't penetrate through the block?
I do think I need to patch the exterior - but I'm afraid that that doesn't necessarily solve the water problem - what I'm saying is that the water is still going to be there...
What suggestions do you have as far as that's concerned.
Thanks
Posts: 13 | Location: Ohio, USA | Registered: 05 January 2007
what water against wall(s)? Other than the small area you talked about waterprf`g, the other areas will same as it has been, for what,last 50 years. You said you have no-other problem areas. some folks won`t have future crack(s) `n leaks occur and others will.
always going to have water around house, along walls, under floor when it rains. its the type of soil and roots one should be aware of, this is what can do damage. Droughts can cause problems too, especially with porches/additions
if you backfill with peastone water will go right-through the stone, never had/seen 1 prob in nearly 3 decades, not 1. sand is pretty much same drainage along depth of wall if using to backfill.
hydrostatic pressure, when the soil becomes THOROUGHLY saturated. Clay for instance, when it gets soaked exerts TONS of pressure. Its the water IN the SOIL. expand `n contract.....for ME, thats how i see it, anybody else want to view differently, fine
"this type of drainage prevents trapped water and saturated soil next to foundation from building up horizontal hydrostatic pressure which causes walls to crack,bow,collapse..."
Can only tell you about what an engineer acquaintence of mine did to prevent water problems from occuring in the basement of the home he built and designed.
Basically, he took a "get the water away from the house" approach, and despite being over 10 years old, his basement is still dry as a bone and still smells "new."
Sounds as if you've done everything he did except this: pour a concrete "pad" (1-2 feet)"outward" from the edge of the foundation, all the way around the entire perimeter of the house, "tilting" and sloping it appropriately so that the water runs completely around and down behind the house.
Now he had a large pond (complete with water wheel to generate electricity) into which he was able to siphon the runoff.
If you have the room in your backyard, it would be nice to create a water feature into which your excess water could drain.
He, in my opinion, went a bit overboard by not landscaping in front of the concrete drain.
My neighbor did. Looks great and from what I understand, they no longer have leaks in the basement.
If and when I dig, I will backfill with stone to relieve pressure.
I guess right now, I'd like to just know where the water is coming from... I have a tree right next to the leaking wall - a mature pine, it's possible the roots have broken the block right?
I live in central Ohio and from what I understand our soil is Clay or Clay-like. It is pretty tough digging - so I think the soil does expand...
If the "extra" water is not coming from my neighbor's downspout cut off above the ground in my side yard then perhaps it's from overflowing gutters....
I will most definitely try the hose test once it stops raining... until then I'll keep guessing where the water is coming from and wiping up the floor!!!
Posts: 13 | Location: Ohio, USA | Registered: 05 January 2007
the old 'pour concrete around the house' recomendation.
with all due respect.... you will recommend this to others based on, apparently 1-2 instances where a friend has done it and so far..'apparently'...no probelm?
you say... "sounds as if you`ve done EVERYTHING except this"... to ME, sounds as if he has NOT.
He hasn`t yet 'defined' the problem which will most likely be a crack or other opening outside either above ground and/or below on outside of basement wall in this...one area. run water-hose test.
IF there is a crack(s) etc on outside of hollow block wall in this one area then waterproofing the crack- 5'part of this wall/corner would be about $775-875. IF he needs to do 12-15' it should be around $1,200-1,475 ish,(whatever). Thats what will stop/prevent water from entering a crack/other opening on outside of wall.
Maybe he ONLY has a problem/opening ABOVE ground, open mortar joint(s),openings around window etc, if so, then THATS what he/others need to seal-fix! Cost for that, lol,about $5
His problem sure seems to be only in one-corner, why POUR concrete along the entire perimeter of house? geezzz, you serious?
Concrete isn`t going to seal/waterproof the entry-point(s), it may divert SOME-Surface-water, it will not keep all water/moisture away from entire DEPTH of basement walls.
lets say he DID do this and it did, for awhile, divert most water away BUT, since crack left open he began to get terimtes in or maybe began to see mold growing on wall in corner due to moisture still entering, now what? its certainly possible, in fact have seen it.
enough moisture could still enter because the crack is still OPEN, maybe not enough to soak the floor but, enough to cause mold.
and termites, they can enter a house without direct wood contact THROUGH an OPENING as small as 1/32 of an inch. i bet many Exterminators are most likely NOT gonna tell ya you need to try and stop/prevent them from entering, would take business/MONEY away from them, thats 1 reason they want to keep coming back. Can they spray chtt on inside and outside, apparently so but does that seal any-all openings on outside? Not.
Concrete can settle, what if some of this concrete settles/dips etc? What if a part of it settles against the house/against the bsmt wall and puts pressure agst the top of wall, maybe crack or push the top of wall in a bit? Now what. Hey, 10" thick slabs of concrete in the street will crack,settle....driveways slabs crack,settle, and smaller pieces of concrete can also drop/settle/crack.
Pour concrete along entire perimeter of house? about 2' so lets add this up, apporox cost for contractor to do may be as low as what, $800 if your lucky, maybe $1,500...more? lolol, sure. If all the while the a PROBLEM was a crack on outside of hollow block at/near corner, then that $800,1,500, whatever.... would have been enough to SOLVE the Problem!
Seen and done waterproofing on builders-homes who`ve tried this! They dug down 1-2', poured concrete and still leaked, still had mold, still had efflorescence. Water in soil can travel-percolate-move SIDEWAYS as well as down. It doesn`t ONLY go STRAIGHT down, no...thats only possible when say, a basement wall was Backfilled with all peastone/gravel, THEN it will, for the most part, go down and not much sideways.
Like i say, you folks do what ya like, keep trying the simple things, a few of you will be able to divert enough water away, for awhile and maybe for years...a few. god bless ya`s
same old thing with many-Not All Hm insp`s, it`ll NEVER change...they`ll recommend ya raise the grade 4' high, fill in some dumb 'lowspot' near the house, extend downspout extensions 1/2 mile away into street or, maybe into a neighbors yard, thank you Mr Rogers! Not a clue. Yeah yeah HI`s, their just doing their best, just people too, trying to make a living and all that. Thing is, OTHERS are getting screwed here, sure, not all but quite a few buyers are when their given the WRONG info-facts,supposed-remedies on why basement has leak, mold-efflorescence on bsmt wall,why a wall may be bowing in.
Basements DON`T leak/seep because the DOG knocked off the downspout extension,NO! Why does a Roof leak? Is it the slope or because there is an opening up there that allows water to enter, huh?
Why did the TITANIC sink? Have anything to do with slope of ocean, huh? no, of course not
IF you sell a house with a crack(s) and think-assume you`ve correctly fixed/waterproofed the cracks, and new owner moves in and has a leak/problem , i`ll help them every way i can to go back on the seller,Hm insp etc to get the money to FIX the crack-leak correctkly and forever. DEFINE the problem/leak/crack/whatever, fix it correctly, and be done with it! Too many fart around, thats the truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Renaissance Renovator: Dear Sir,
Can only tell you about what an engineer acquaintence of mine did to prevent water problems from occuring in the basement of the home he built and designed.
Basically, he took a "get the water away from the house" approach, and despite being over 10 years old, his basement is still dry as a bone and still smells "new."
Sounds as if you've done everything he did except this: pour a concrete "pad" (1-2 feet)"outward" from the edge of the foundation, all the way around the entire perimeter of the house, "tilting" and sloping it appropriately so that the water runs completely around and down behind the house.
Now he had a large pond (complete with water wheel to generate electricity) into which he was able to siphon the runoff.
If you have the room in your backyard, it would be nice to create a water feature into which your excess water could drain.
He, in my opinion, went a bit overboard by not landscaping in front of the concrete drain.
My neighbor did. Looks great and from what I understand, they no longer have leaks in the basement.
My house, before I owned it, has had termites, there is some damage I am about to replace, and I have treated again as agreement of purchase - but I wonder if possibly the water is gettin in where the termites were getting in? - although this is about 10-12 feet away from where the wall is leaking... just an interesting thought seeing as how you mentioned termites....
Posts: 13 | Location: Ohio, USA | Registered: 05 January 2007
I had the same problem you did although mine was caused by an old sewer pipe that had a large gap around it and I could actually watch the water come in during a heavy Portland rainstorm. I too, am a DIY'er, and found a great way to dry out all of my walls on a 90 year old basement. Drylock will work, but only for a year or two before it fails, and eventually water will go to the area of least resistance, so it may work right now, but don't count on it for long. I found this product called Sani-Tred and for about $2000 I was able to waterproof the entire 1200 sq.ft basement in preparation for refinishing it. Don't get me wrong, I did correct the gutters, the grading, etc in preparation for keeping the water out, however, when it rains in Portland, a few inched per day, it's hard to keep things dry. This product worked and I didn't have to ruin my landscaping to fix it. Check out their website and see what you think. They offer a trial size version (which is what I did first) and I'm sold on the product and have been for the past two years. Good luck!
Posts: 1 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: 10 January 2007
Q) "Are sumps allowed in Shaker Heights? A) "Yes, although this is not the approach we recommend. It`s not waterproofing, its water manangement..........."
Q) "What if problem is not related to surface grading etc ...... A) "The preferred method for dealing with damp and leaking basements is to DIG....Outside...to footing......."
...."Excessive moisture can also create a BREEDING ground for insects, mould and mildew, not only unpleasant....but a potential health hazard. Fungus and mould can contribute to chronic colds and respiratory ailments"
in you click the "renovating basement-moisture problems" ..they say, among other stuff, "basement moisture problems can have a huge effect on the durability of the entire house structure and on the indoor air quality(IAQ) throughout the house"
apparently, ALL these links/people,myself and others are wrong....according to SANI and according to the INSIDE goofballs, so...believe what ya like, i just TRY to help get to the facts and BEYOND the bllcht! some of these are stuck on stupid, thats not my fault
Emerick stresses that the only way to completely waterproof a basement is on the inside of the basement walls and floors, not the outside. "The Sani-Tred basement sealing system stops all ground water entry, basement humidity, mildew odors and dampness problems by sealing the basement where it needs it the most, which is on the inside," Emerick says. "On the inside of your basement the normal ground water table is generally found at about 4 feet below the surrounding grade," Emerick explains. "Most basement foundation footings are from 7 to 9 feet below ground level. This causes natural hydraulic water pressure to cause leaks in basement walls, footings and floors. The exterior concrete foundation walls do not need to be protected from water. It is only the interior of the basement walls and floors that needs to be sealed."
I can't beleive someone is actually selling a product that says it's okay for the water to get through the first line of defense (outside wall) but make sure you seal the second and final line of defense (inside wall) ...
I mean - I have no interest in promoting either way - I'm simply trying to get a dry and remodeled basement --- but I can't believe someone would promote that agenda... amazing.
I'm almost finished describing my treatments I've tried --- btw - I'm wondering if I've excacerbated the problem with not properly sloping my french drain - it's perforated pipe laid in visqueen and pea gravel, then covered with riverbed pulverised topsoil... I have it tied into a pipe that also catches roof run off --- I hope the roof runoff isn't running backwards and creating problems - who knows?
Anyway's - I cleaned up a nother portion of the basement yesterday and noticed the next corner of the basement is now starting to yellow and doesn't look very good - obviously damp = however not seeping... It's interesting to note that these two corners are the corners where the gutters drain to the downspouts.
I read the links from Ottawa about the trees ---I have a large tree right next to the foundation --- but it is a pine "type" --- but I still have to wonder if it's causing foundation problems --- It's about 5 times as tall as the distance to the house.... so it's pretty mature and close to the house...
I am going to run the hose test when it dries up a bit, and warms up a bit --- but, if and when I excavate, if I backfill just this corner area with peagravel-- won't that create a "path of least resistance" for more water to accumulate in that area? --- Also, I cannot tie in any foundation drains or lay footage drains - they have no where to go as I do not have storm sewers in my neighborhood... How deep should I dig then? Stop at the 4 inch block where the leak is ? or deeper?
Would you not recommend for a DIY to rent a backhoe, or simply just use a shovel?
Posts: 13 | Location: Ohio, USA | Registered: 05 January 2007
How any company can advertise such FLAGRANT LIES is beyond me. For one thing, THERE IS NO "NORMAL" WATER TABLE! There may not be a water table at all in well-draining soils...well there is, but it might be more than 15 feet below the surface, well below any basement. Or, the water table could be two feet below the surface. Or there could be a "perched" water condition, where a thin film of water runs below a sand layer and on top of a clay layer at any depth.
For another thing, the ONLY way that commercial buildings, which can have two and three basements or more and can extend 50 feet or more below ground level, are waterproofed IS ON THE OUTSIDE! No designer of such buildings would EVER consider a system which allows water intrusion into a foundation and then attempts to deal with it on the inside.
All that people like LicensedWaterproofer suggest is an adaptation of commercial waterproofing methods to residential construction. Does anyone believe that underground facilities such as...oh, Area 51 in Nevada...are waterproofed by some coating on the inside of the walls?
bmf02, if you've installed a perforated subsurface drain system which has no outlet, and then connected your downspouts to that system, it is very possible that your downspouts are pressurizing the system and actually driving water through the perforated pipe into the subsoil and thus into your basement. A cheap method to investigate this would be to disconnect the downspouts from the system and at least temporarily extend them horizontally above ground to maybe 8 feet away from the house, and see what happens next time it rains.
However, if your basement walls were properly waterproofed on the outside, even the pressurized pipe would not be able to drive water into the basement...the hydrostatic pressure would dissipate in the pea gravel, extending in all directions, even possibly up, but at a much reduced and probably negligible pressure. Yes, the water would still be there after a rain, but not under the same pressure, and it would at least partly dissipate in a variety of ways as the weather dries up.
Architect (NY) and Home Designer (PA)
Posts: 2572 | Location: Tobyhanna, PA | Registered: 24 October 2005
Ya have 1 area, a corner and within 4' or so of the same corner that....gets water entering after a heavy rain....right? It has or has NOT been waterproofed correctly on the Outside? Brick house?
this MIGHT happen within 10 minutes or so, just depends on type of soil and size of possible crack/other opening on outside of bsmt wall... below ground.