I am having water seepage in my basement right where the wall meets the floor, its a hair crack. What is the best way to fix this problem if I canoot afford the drain tile system?

thank you

Be glad you can't afford an interior drain tile system, because it wouldn't solve the problem anyway. Where water aoppears has very little to do with where water enters a foundation. More than likely you have a crack or other opening in your foundation wall, and it probably can be repaired and waterproofed quite inexpensively, for a fraction of what an interior drain tile system would cost.

Do a hose test outside the wall where the water appears, Run a garden hose full blast for about 45 minutes at the base of the wall, doing about 4 to 6 feet of wall at a time, and see when the water enters. When it does, you will know where the leak is, and therefore where to dig to fix it. If your foundation is much more than 3 feet deep there, it would be best to have professionals do the digging, because of the risk of cave ins.

Repair and waterproof the wall according to the recommendations of LicensedWaterproofR...you'll find that information many times in his posts here.

Interior drainage system witchhunts... I love it. You have to keep in mind that water entering cove joint isn't always due to water on the exterior side of the wall. If you have excess water under the slab, digging up a section of your wall and "waterproofing" will not solve anything. If there are no cracks or no leaking cracks in your foundation wall, then the hose test may not be most helpful. If you have floor cracks, check for signs of moisture or leaking. If there is water penetrating floor cracks, then you may have problem that all of Hentzels posts cannot address.

quote:

Originally posted by watergeek:
Interior drainage system witchhunts... I love it. You have to keep in mind that water entering cove joint isn't always due to water on the exterior side of the wall. If you have excess water under the slab, digging up a section of your wall and "waterproofing" will not solve anything. If there are no cracks or no leaking cracks in your foundation wall, then the hose test may not be most helpful. If you have floor cracks, check for signs of moisture or leaking. If there is water penetrating floor cracks, then you may have problem that all of Hentzels posts cannot address.

Throughout many posts `n pics, i do believe we`ve thoroughly explained the possibilities of water that appears at-along wall-floor joint/cove/cold joint or up through floor cracks

Capizzo Construction,Stremersch,Downriver Water`g and few others here in SE MI,which has mostly clay, and John M @ E-O-F in Canada,`n my old az have seen for 30 yrs the most-likely reason/cause for water that appears at-along wall-floor.It is most often due to exterior cracks and other openings.

About 5-10% of the time the problem can be from a basement back-up when it rains for days or rains very hard one day,many ONLY get water in upon heavy-long rains and almost all of these HO`s the water they see along wall-floor(or floor cracks) is from either, a blockage between the street and house(city problem or HO`s,will post link). Many will need to s n a k e the storm trap cleanout,others will need to contact city...

HERE is what you people don`t understand and/or are not willing to tell homeowners you`ll have to buy the story,here was link http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/local...ory.asp?a=324782&z=2

-Looking For The CAUSE
Article stated...'Evidence showed a tremendous amount of rainwater got into the city`s sanitary sewer system...the system is supposed to be a closed system....rainwater got in and CAUSED the system to overrun which LED TO (Ready???) ...BACK UPS in at least 106 homes.Water got into the sewers any number of ways--through leaky manholes,cracked pipes or improperly connected private drains.Any of those pipes--public or private--can crack,be infiltrated by roots or develop leaky joints that grow and admit water'

Understand that?

And when this crap happens, in Minn and elsewhere, how many unknowing/unsuspecting HO`s panic and call the Inside Co`s who....quickly talk many into an inside system which is NOT,was NOT NECESSARY.

-Coping With Sewer Back Ups http://www.sccmua.com/backup.htm

Getting water on floor,along wall-floor joint does NOT at all mean anyone/everyone needs an Inside system...NONSENSE.

-Story ran not long ago,Grand Rapids MI looks like you`ll have to buy this one too, they sure oust these Inside-problem-links pretty quick http://www.woodtv.com/global/story.asp?s=8945

Title was 'Flooded Basements Leave Residents Concerned' ...in part, the video showed homeonwer who already spent $10,000 for an INSIDE SYSTEM w/Ultra Sump III and STILL LEAK and have Cracks in the basement floor WIDENING.

Many HO`s get water some amount of water in on spring thaws and/or when it rains but doesn`t have to be a long,heavy rain and get water along floor-wall joint 3-5 a year, or more.THESE people are the 90-95% who very likely have a crack(s) or other exterior openings

And some folks who have an existing sump `n pit will ONLY need to creat-drill HOLES in the SIDES of PIT WALL, just under the thickness basement floor. Water can accumulate under floor and then rise up through floor cracks and/or along wall-floor joint and whoever installed the sump and PIT didn`t allow for water under floor to get into the pit wall UP HIGH, pit wall should have openings up higher for this!

So Mr Geek, why don`t many (or all)of you owners/salespeople INFORM HO`s of these FACTS? Well, again its because of incompetence or you don`t want HO`s to know and continue the BS game for SELF GAIN.

Often hear-read how, SUPPOSEDLY, honest many Inside owners/salespeople are, how supposedly thorough ya`s are, that the National Co`s have all the experts etc etc....the TRUTH is many are INCOMPETENT, and some are FRAUDS.How you like those delicious red apples? Truth hurts doesn`t it.

You want answers from ANOTHER source? Call others listed above, here is John M contact info http://www.e-o-f.com/contact.html

http://www.e-o-f.com/foundation.html#SCAMS
-These products,or methods are NOT intended to STOP water and they don`t
-damproofing(tar only) is NOT waterproofing
-Drain clad is NOT waterproofing
-System platon is NOT waterproofing
The Following SYSTEMS many of us refer to as FRAUDS
-Water CONTROL is NOT waterproofing
-A SUB Drain System is NOT waterproofing
-Bentonite injection is NOT waterproofing
-A PRESSURE RELIEF SYSTEM is NOT waterproofing

Some Building Dept`s 'get-it' to some extent, many don`t, this one gets alot more than most. GEEK, read question and answer 1 and 5 http://www.shakeronline.com/dept/building/FAQ.asp#wetbasements What do THEY say? What is preferred and what is NOT the approach they recommend? You tell us.

And get the shtt off Richards back, he has taken LOTS of FREE TIME to try `n help MANY more people than yer bs`g,biased,self gain crap ever will. call John @ EOF,call Capizzo etc? Are ya afraid of what they`ll tell you, what they know?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofR,

Well, since I never said that interior drainage systems are the only way to go, I think you are being over-insulting of my intelligence and knowledge of water. In fact, most of my competitors are infamous doing exactly what you have referenced in your post.

My company is not a national one, and in fact, we have the reputation that we do because our approach is way different than just going in and "selling" to anyone who will buy it for any water problem. You have no idea how many leads we DQ because simple things like downspouts or chimney flashing will solve their problems.

I was simply suggesting that digging up the exterior is not always the right thing to do, just as interior systems are not always the right thing to do. The problem with foundation repair is that everyone has a patent because of a minor modification, and everyone has a theory that is slightly different. Most of the companies hire salesmen to sell rather than consultants to inform and design the right systems for the right occassions.

Most waterproofers have no idea what they are talking about when including foundation talk into their presentations. I have heard so many false things from my own customers coming from other waterproofers. It sounds like in your story of the "Flooded Basements leave residents concerned" there was a Basement Systems dealer who obviously didn't realize that there was a possible settlement issue in addition to a water problem. Oh, and not all interior systems are created equal. That particular system sits on the footing and thus doesn't relieve water under the slab.

I agree that many of the national companies are frauds and realy have no clue what they are talking about. I lose business to them every day because a high-pressure scare tactic doesn't work for us. We know foundations, soils, water movement, load capacities, etc. better than anyone in the 4 markets we operate in, and that is because we train this in-house rather than sending our salesmen to selling school.

So, before you challenge what we do or do not say to homeowners, I suggest you guys calm down a bit. And for the record, I am not biased either way - - in fact it sounds as if you guys are the ones biased to your approaches! I won't address the self-gain comment because it's irrelevant to the original post and was quite unneccessary.

Biased? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Posting ALL da facts,possibilities is biased?

Its biased to YOU and others like you because you don`t wanna hear it,read it, goes against what many blcchtt homeowners about and incompetently believe.

Say again, anyone who wants facts-possibilities of all basement problems,leaks,cracks from someone else who truly understands then call/e-mail John McEwen at EOF or try and call Capizzo Construction etc

Capizzo,Stremersch and few others have 30+ years in this BIZ w/NO customer complaints. How is it possible most-many-all Inside Co`s owners/salepeople could have same or more knowledge/experience? It`s NOT. And the MEDIA, its waaay overdue for some of you folks to start calling US for the answers,possibilties.Many of us PUKE, every weekend listening to these Incompetent Inside knotheads who profess they are experts and we know squat

It is biased if what I am suggesting is not included in your "posting all the facts, possibilities." In fact, I do want to hear about it because my reputation is based on the information I give my clients and the solutions we provide to them. And by the way, 12 years, no BBB complaints or other, and many engineers/architects/builders etc. in four large midwest markets trust our solutions to be correct and appropriate because of our approach to each and every project.

Just because we don't 100% agree doesn't make either of us right or wrong. That's the problem with our industry... too many "experts" with conflicting opinions that only confuse homeowners. It sounds like we are both passionate about our fields so therefore arguing over generalities or differences between exterior/interior approaches really doesn't help either of us help people coming to this board looking for help. Agree?

quote:

Originally posted by watergeek:
It is biased if what I am suggesting is not included in your "posting all the facts, possibilities." In fact, I do want to hear about it because my reputation is based on the information I give my clients and the solutions we provide to them. And by the way, 12 years, no BBB complaints or other, and many engineers/architects/builders etc. in four large midwest markets trust our solutions to be correct and appropriate because of our approach to each and every project.

Just because we don't 100% agree doesn't make either of us right or wrong. That's the problem with our industry... too many "experts" with conflicting opinions that only confuse homeowners. It sounds like we are both passionate about our fields so therefore arguing over generalities or differences between exterior/interior approaches really doesn't help either of us help people coming to this board looking for help. Agree?

on your other post you said to contact you guys @ 3d structural solution... http://www.kansascity.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=99126879

biased? anyone who ONLY describes an inside grate drain system is BIASED...do you post ALL facts/possibilities and real solutions on site? http://www.3dstructural.com/basement-waterproofing/

you bother to read other links i posted?
the 'lrb' Amherst link?
Shaker Heights Bldg dept link?
bob vila why foundations fail link? etc
you bother to look at pic`s posted?
No complaints? or at least 2 that are shown

quote:

Interior drainage system witchhunts... I love it. You have to keep in mind that water entering cove joint isn't always due to water on the exterior side of the wall. If you have excess water under the slab, digging up a section of your wall and "waterproofing" will not solve anything. If there are no cracks or no leaking cracks in your foundation wall, then the hose test may not be most helpful. If you have floor cracks, check for signs of moisture or leaking. If there is water penetrating floor cracks, then you may have problem that all of Hentzels posts cannot address.

Isn't nature wonderful? Nature can produce a condition where ground water entering the cove joint is due to a water table which exists under the floor slab, but does not extend one inch further up the foundation wall? And nature does this time after time after time, so thank goodness we have watergeek and his magic solution. Well, the problem is, he installs his solution before he diagnoses the problem. Hose test? Why bother? Just let the water in, and we'll take care of it for you, ma'am. Well, a few of us know better.

Watergeek assails "Hentzel" (the name is Hetzel, Mr. Geek, sir) without reading any of several posts where "Hentzel" discusses water entering through cracks in na floor slab. I suppose when one is accustomed to proceeding without full and complete information about an issue, one would do exactly that in this case as well. Why did "Hentzel" expect anything different?

These guys expose themselves for exactly what they are...snake oil salesmen. The guy in the circus probably really believed it was snake oil in the bottle, and really believed it could cure anything. With the decline in circus performances, the snake oil salesmen had to find another venue for their salesmanship, and it appears that they have settled on basement water diversion (and disposable income diversion) as their new "big top". "Ladeeeeez and Gentlemen, please step over here...and get the magic cure for all ills..." Right.

Once again... attack my post before you attack my character... you don't know me. I don't have room on my website to go into detail of all the things we do. Hence, that tab is called "Basement Waterproofing" and highlights the best interior drainage system in the industry. See, you constantly accuse me of prescribing a pill for things I haven't diagnosed and I don't see how offering suggestions or various ideas constitutes as definitively saying "YES, YOU NEED.." because I believe I haven't.

Nice call on the BBB resolution notice. What does it prove? That particular claim was on a flatwork attachment to a garage with mudjacking. It settled and crack, as most concrete does in KC. What are you trying to prove? Funny, I have not tried to discredit you guys one bit. I have, however, suggested that there may be more necessary for structural repair than simply excavating a wall and putting in gravel. Yes, I agree, better to have the expansive soil away from the wall. However, that may not be enough in highly expansive soils like ours.

And for the record, if we were snake oil salesmen then we would probably be a much larger and profitable company with a helluva lot more BBB complaints, don't ya think?

Well, see, there are a couple of very important differences. First, I am not selling anything, period. LicensedWaterproofR is in the business in the Detroit area, but is always willing to help folks no matter where they live, even if it's out of his range. Second, LicensedWaterproofR, concretemasonry, Home Crae Club, Maintenance6, Jay in Minnesota, and many others, including myself, put a lot of effort into this forum, without expecting any gain, and they all have one thing in common: they ask questions, and request more information, before hazarding a guess as to what might be an appropriate solution for the person's problem. None of them, myself included, offer quick answers before learning as much as possible, especially answers which involve something we sell...because as far as I know, none of us is selling anything. We are giving our best advice, for free.

I think those are significant differences. And by the way, in over 40 years in architecture, with background also in structural engineering, I have never heard anyone use the term "load distribution", and I still can't see what a footing would have to do with a horizontal crack and some bowing three blocks from the top of a wall. I could list all the factors that do possibly have to do with such cracking, but I'm sure you know them, and I'm tired and I want to go to bed.

Furthermore, "the best interior drainage system in the industry" is still a disposable-income diversion system and nothing more, except in maybe 2% of the cases.

Yep, and I also joined this board to offer suggestions without gain. I only have once offered my services and because the homeowner was in my area. And, I am also not here to sell anything... if someone wants to have us review a problem, they will find us. If I were here to sell product or seek gain, I would be showboating my company. However, I also know this would not be favorable for anyone and it's not worth it on a message board. I'm not here for free advertising.

So you may have never heard the words "load distribution" before... that means nothing. The footing configuration will have something to do with the wall a wall will respond to soil pressure or a term I do not use often, "hydrostatic pressure." Wouldn't you agree? I have no problem explaining this and having agreement from engineers that we work with. And these are engineers whose firm's reputations are just as much at stake as ours.

I don't believe I offered firm answers, but yes, I did offer possibilities or suggestions of potential solutions or things to look into based on the description of the problem. I have never once said "you need x,y,and/or z and I know this for sure." So, it sounds like we are here for the same thing, now can we try to be civil and answer posts as we see fit? We will not always have the same ideas and questions or suggestions, and that is ok. Our various levels of experience both in the field and in study will dictate this. With that said, I call a truce because it is doing none of us any good to argue over these things. Let the posters formulate their own opinions of what advice they wil pursue or dismiss. Sound fair?

Oh, and interior drainage systems ARE indeed water control systems. Not always applicable, but when it is, we happen to have researched and found what we believe the best in the industry for a lot of reasons. 'Disposable income diversion' has nothing to do with it, as every project that any of us in this industry undertake, big or small, is not money that people budget for. No one asks to spend money on foundation repair or waterproofing or concrete leveling. And actually, these systems are very comparitive and sometimes less expensive than exterior applications. So, if I give a homeowner several options and help them understand what each option means to their structure, their budget, their resale ramifications, warranty, etc - how am I doing a diservice or being a "snake oil salesman?"

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Hetzel:

quote:

Interior drainage system witchhunts... I love it. You have to keep in mind that water entering cove joint isn't always due to water on the exterior side of the wall. If you have excess water under the slab, digging up a section of your wall and "waterproofing" will not solve anything. If there are no cracks or no leaking cracks in your foundation wall, then the hose test may not be most helpful. If you have floor cracks, check for signs of moisture or leaking. If there is water penetrating floor cracks, then you may have problem that all of Hentzels posts cannot address.

Isn't nature wonderful? Nature can produce a condition where ground water entering the cove joint is due to a water table which exists under the floor slab, but does not extend one inch further up the foundation wall? And nature does this time after time after time, so thank goodness we have watergeek and his magic solution. Well, the problem is, he installs his solution before he diagnoses the problem. Hose test? Why bother? Just let the water in, and we'll take care of it for you, ma'am. Well, a few of us know better.

Watergeek assails "Hentzel" (the name is Hetzel, Mr. Geek, sir) without reading any of several posts where "Hentzel" discusses water entering through cracks in na floor slab. I suppose when one is accustomed to proceeding without full and complete information about an issue, one would do exactly that in this case as well. Why did "Hentzel" expect anything different?

These guys expose themselves for exactly what they are...snake oil salesmen. The guy in the circus probably really believed it was snake oil in the bottle, and really believed it could cure anything. With the decline in circus performances, the snake oil salesmen had to find another venue for their salesmanship, and it appears that they have settled on basement water diversion (and disposable income diversion) as their new "big top". "Ladeeeeez and Gentlemen, please step over here...and get the magic cure for all ills..." Right.

I'm just curious about a high water table and cracks in the basement floor at or near the cove joint with water seepage...

Let's say you have a cube. 4 of the sides of the cube indicate the 4 walls of a basement. The bottom of the cube is the floor of the basement. The top is irrevelent.

You take the cube and hold it above a bucket of water. No leaks. You take the cube and slowly submerge it in water, indicating a rising water table. No leaks. Now, you poke a hole in the bottom of the cube(basement floor) and now it allows water to come in through the bottom whereas the 4 sides of the cube(basement walls) still hold the water back.


Is that not how a rising water table under the slab lets water in to a basement floor with cracks in it....or am I missing something?

Don't bash me...just trying to learn

I'm almost afraid to answer... but in theory, yes, your analogy is a good one. However, if the water level is high enough to come through the floor crack(s), then it should be the same level and come through the cove joint - if the water can penetrate the soil enough to get through all areas under the slab. With high clay content, it is possible that once the the clay is saturated, it may not allow water to perculate into other areas under the slab.