Below is link to picture of my basement. This is the same basement as discussed below in "Basement still leaking after waterproofing." Apologies for bringing up in new thread but just trying to get opinions on where water may be coming from. LicensedWaterproofer, what do you think??

Thanks again for everyone's time/opinion!!

http://www.marblearchrealty.com/water1.htm

After looking at the pictures, and not personally inspecting the foundation. My opinion ( Keep in mind all this is. Is opinion everyone on this site is trying to help, but its just opinions when we have not been in your basement to inspect it our self’s) Any way my opinion is that you need a inside drainage system and a ventilation system.

Hmmm, another "inside drainage system" proponent. In other words, give up, don't try to solve the problem, pretend mold, vermin and radon do not exist, and just channel the water...maybe the homeowner can float little boats in it, and if it's a really sophisticated installation, he or she can have locks and everything, kinda like the Panama Canal. Keep in mind this is just an opinion, and we are all trying to help...some of us more than others.

Richard,
If you look at the pictures of this basement water is coming up through cracks in the floor. Based on the age and type of construction I would bet the do not have and interior drain tile at all. They already spent thousands waterproofing the out side. So yes, I would bet you what ever you want I could do a drainage system and a ventilation system and fix the problem. How would you fix it? No guesses, a for sure fix.

Basementguy,

With all due respect I am afraid that you are just what consumers don't need, another inside drain company.

From an earlier post by basement guy:

"I do not believe that you can fix 100% of a water problem with out a inside system. If you do usually the walls will start to break and bow."

Ridiculous! If this were the case, every home in Ohio would have bowed walls.

"You must have a strong drainage system or you will be rebuilding walls"

Of course, but I believe the drainage system has to be placed outside, not under the basement floor in order to actually be WATERPROOFING. When you let the water in by means of drilling weep holes in the wall you are watercontrolling.

If you are teaching your salesman that exterior waterproofing does not work, than you are simply lying to them, and in turn your customers. Many homes I waterproof are 50 years or older. The majority of these homes were never sealed, were not backfilled with gravel and relied on clay footer tiles.. These homes remained dry for decades. To suggest that this method, using the modern materials available today, will not work, is an untruth, and I am certain you know this. A percentage of my business is water control, and I know it works in controlling the seepage, but I repesent this method accurately.

As for digging all the cracks you can find, what about the majority that you are missing. Most of the cracks my company repairs are not visible from the inside or above the grade.

I have no doubt that you will be a very successful and prosperous business man, after all you are simply modelling the other int.drain system companies that have made their owners wealthy. As for the above mentioned and commented on situation, I will pay for you to install your interior system, without the ventilation, and without the waterproofing pannels on the wall hiding the condition, if you agree to pay me twice the cost when your inside system does not solve the humidity problem.

Richard Hetzel: from what you see in the pictures do yo think humidity alone could cause all that dampness?? How do you explain the puddle by the boiler?? Puddle showed up after a heavy rain.

While humidity may play a role, i don't think it is what my problem is. Indeed, every waterproofer who came in and saw what I had recommended waterproofing, either outside dig or an inside job. Trust me when I say that the amount of dampness after the job is the same as before. Perhaps now I am not getting water coming through the walls but it is certainly showing up to the same degree as before. Perhaps this water has been blocked from coming in via wall and is now seeming in via footer or bottom block or both. Humidity might cause a smell and some dampness but can't cause all the dampness I'm getting. While waterproofing the walls certainly stopped any water from getting through that way, my water is coming from somewhere else.

Again, the only way for me to have a dry basement now is to run dehumidifier 24/7 in spring/summer. This is a form of water control also as it is collecting the water that is coming in. Sure, humidity will sink but, in my opinion, can not cause what is seen in those pictures.

What do you think???

We are to the point now where looking at pictures is not sufficient. First-hand observation is necessary. If you say that a dehumidifier DOES dry up the moisture, then why not just run it?

We've had so many of basement water posts that they are all kind of running together in my mind, and I don't have the time to go back through them all and sort them out, but didn't you say that your floor slab was very thin?

If so, and judging from the apparent age of your foundation, the floor probably doesn't have a vapor retarder under it either...so maybe your next step is to demolish the thin floor, place 4 inches of gravel if there is none, place a vapor retarder, and pour a proper 4-inch floor slab.

Wtrprfr1
I like the fact that you are feel so strong in your system. Keep in mind the basement is still wet. If this was my customer their basement would be dry. No mater how much it cost me. I would love to take your challenge, but only if you let me put the ventilation system in too. This basement has more than one problem. It has a wet or damp floor and it also has high humidity. Just like every clay tile basement I have ever seen. I will also let you off the hook. If I waterproof this basement, I will take all the liability for a life time warranty of the structure PERIOD.

Dear Etmaboy: After looking at the pictures, I think that the best ,most cost effective way to make this basement dry and usable would in fact be an inside drain system. I realize that some contractors do not recognize this as a fix because they have little or no experience with them. I have do both inside drainage systems[ I use several different ones based on proper applications], outside excavation and wall repair/rebuilding, and also basement remodling and refinishing. I certainly would want to see the basement before making a final recommendation. What I have found on this post in the past is that people often only recommend the solutions that they offer or are familar with. I think that what basementguy told You is a good approach to fix Your particular problem. Please don't hesitate to ask Me if You have any more Questions. Yours respectfully,Frank O'Pinion

An inside drainage system is NOT a FIX, it is an admission of DEFEAT. No attempt is made to analyze possible causes, and determine steps which will keep water OUT of the basement. It says "well, we don't know why the water comes in, but once it's in, we'll try as best we can to control it."

If you have, as I recall, a very thin floor slab, with very likely NO vapor retarder beneath it, and having waterproofed the foundation walls, the source of the moisture is VERY LIKELY the floor slab. If a proper vapor retarder is installed, with taped joints, and taped to all walls and penetrations, and a new slab is poured, of the proper 4-inch thickness. your problems MAY be solved.

I can't say they WILL be solved because I cannot examine the premises first hand. What I'm suggesting is no more than an educated guess, but at least, it's not "I give up, let the water come in, and we'll try to deal with it, and you'll continue to have dampness, mold, etc."

Rich

these bozo`s are full of it, playing games and bs`g people is about all they are kinda good at, lol no joke.

have ya noticed the 'handful' of recent posters with names like BasementDr etc....its most likely 1-3 guys from NAWSRC who come `n post here cuz they don`t like the fact a few of us post the TRUTH on this board, yup.

Let's assume for a moment that this problem is humidity. This humidity has multiple sources, no?? I'm thinking it can sink down from above basement, it can come through the floor and it can come through the wall at the base (I'm assuming that since I have had my foundation walls waterproofed the water is no longer coming through the wall.)

My waterproofer thinks that my problem is 100% humidity. If it is humidity then how come I get almost all the dampness/wetness happening at the base of foundation wall where it meets my slab?? Wouldn't some humidity condense on the cold concrete slab also, away from the wall?? Also, the wetness at the foundation wall/slab joint is not consistent. That is, some spots are very wet while others are only a little wet. Humidity is not choosy...it should be consistently wet every where along the foundation wall/slab.

My other clue is that something else is going on is that the "major" problem spots where the most water came through before waterproofing of foundation walls are still major. That is, I get more wetness/dampness in those spots. If you look at the first picture in the link I posted, you will notice that the floor is very wet to the left of the water line...but dries up considerably as you move away from this corner. If this were just a humidity problem then the dampness would not be collecting only in the corner. Also, you can see the wet spots in the cracks to.

All of these clues tell me that my problem is still water coming in at the base of the foundation wall where slab meets it. In addition, I think I also have humidity leaking in from slab...either through the cracks or just very slow through all the pores. As this is an old house the slab is probably not much more than 2" think with no vapor retarder.

I know that if I run dehumidifiers 24/7 I can dry up my basement. But to me this is similar to an inside system in that it is treating the water once it has already gotten into my basement. I don't think this is the proper solution.

As to the debate between an inside system and actually finding the source of my problem, I can see the merits of both. My waterproofer installed an interior drain along the foundation wall but this did not stop the wetness. We did not but panels on the wall though. If there were panels then this wetness would condense against back of panel and drip into drain. Then it would not show up on my slab. I think this would solve most of the dampness issue, since most of it comes at the base of foundation wall. But it would not stop humidity from above or coming through the slab. Would a couple of sump pumps be enough to lower the hydrostatic pressure under my floor so that water would not come up through the slab and evaporate into air?? What sq footage would a sump pump be effective for??

Also, I want to note that I am still working with the contractor who did the job, wtprfer1, who posts here on this board. We are both here to try to find the best solution and have a very good relationship. Wtrprfr1 is a man of his word and one could only hope that all contractors would stand by their work they we had. We know there is an issue and now we just have to figure out what and how best to fix it.

Thanks to all for the time and help!!

Basementguy:

"If I waterproof this basement, I will take all the liability for a life time warranty of the structure PERIOD."

By allowing the water in only to pump it back out, you you are shortening the life of the structure PERIOD

quote:

Originally posted by Basementguy:
Wtrprfr1
I like the fact that you are feel so strong in your system. Keep in mind the basement is still wet. If this was my customer their basement would be dry. No mater how much it cost me. I would love to take your challenge, but only if you let me put the ventilation system in too. This basement has more than one problem. It has a wet or damp floor and it also has high humidity. Just like every clay tile basement I have ever seen. I will also let you off the hook. If I waterproof this basement, I will take all the liability for a life time warranty of the structure PERIOD.

Just words basement guy.
http://www.columbus-ohbbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=14006350

I don’t understand what your saying. Do you want me to come and fix your screw up or not. By the way yes in the last 36 months we have had 6 complaints. None in the last 12 months. This is something we are very proud of. Since we all know you will never please everyone. We have done over 800 jobs so far this year, that’s 2400 job in the last 36 months. None that are unresolved. That’s just out of our Columbus office. From what I have seen of your record, the only job I know of yours it sounds like you sold them thousands of dollars worth of the wrong fix. My customers are happy. That’s something you will learn to do. It just takes some time in business. If a home owner calls you because their basements wet, and you sell them something that cost $5.00 of $5000.00 if you don’t fix the problem then you ripped them off. Good luck with your situation. Hope it works out for you. Remember I’m your ace in the hole. All you have to do is get your checkbook out I will come fix your problem and make your customer happy.

IF the problem is humidity, the humidity comes from somewhere. I don't know what region the house is in, or whether it's a generally humid area, but a basement does not create humidity by itself. In other words, the humidity is a symptom of the actual disease, What we haven't figured out yet is what that disease is.

A strong possibility is the floor slab. It is possible that heavy moisture penetrating the slab causes the humidity. Why the water appears some places and not others is a mystery that we may as well chalk up to witchcraft. We simply don't know why.

Maybe it's something in the subgrade under the slab that directs the water here but not there. Maybe the floor slab varies in thickness, and the water only penetrates the thinnest spots. Who knows?

I agree that water is still getting into the basement. I agree that the work on the outside of the walls probably eliminates the walls as the source. Moisture of the nature illustrated in your pictures is probably not entering the basement from above. What else is there? All clues point to the floor as the source. Moisture enters through it, and causes the humidity. That's my bet.

If it were my house, I'd break up the thin floor slab and remove it. and then remove enough earth to get a 4-inch gravel bed throughout. Then I'd lay down a vapor retarder and tape all joints, walls, and penetrations. Finally, I'd pour a new 4-inch concrete slab. I might even try to find a flexible water seal to place on the perimeter...one that adheres to the existing wall, and is contained within the slab thickness. I don't know if such an item exists, but I'd sure look for it, That's what I'd do if it were my house, unless I discovered something radical when I removed the floor slab.

I would know that it might not solve my water problem, but I'd believe the odds were very much in favor of doing so.

Inspectorg2085,
Wow, I have to run to a meeting now, but later tonight I will respond to your post. By the way I bet your boss would like to know that you are representing Cleveland Ohio on HGTVPRO. With your opinion. Talk to you soon.

I should add that I would include a sump pit if I reconstructed the basement floor, as insurance. A pump may or may not be needed. I designed an office building where the basement floor was placed one foot above where tests showed the water table to be, and to be safe, we put in a sump pit. When it rained, the water rose in the pit, to about an inch from the floor. When it stopped raining, the water went away. A pump was never needed.

Oddly enough, a change was made during construction to allow one elevator to go to the basement. The elevator pit floor was FOUR FEET below the basement floor. We put a sump pit in the elevator pit also, and that pit remained bone dry 100% of the time.

My point is that ground water can be akin to witchcraft, much like leaks in a superstructure. You see water in one place, but its cause may be several feet away.

In the basement in question in this thread, the remaining weak spot is the floor. The weakest spot in the floor is the joint at the wall. Therefore, water appears where this joint may be weakest. Water appears out in the middle of the floor somewhere, too. The slab is thin, with no vapor retarder, probably no gravel bed, and it's also cracked. What does that suggest?

There appears to be little enough water that a proper gravel bed under the slab would be sufficient to control it, and to allow the water to seek a low point, which would be the sump. It could be that the water would never rise out of the sump, but a pump should still be installed if the sump accumulates any water at all, to mitigate the humidity problem.

Gee-whiz: I hear all you guys talking and arguing about which fix is right, inside drains or outside work.I would say that every home is different... so different fixes apply to different homes. Rich I know with Your background You surly understand that an excavation[especilly in clay soils] will collect water,if You put a foundion into this excavation, a drainage system is necessary. Most of the homes that I work on[these are homes that an architect somewhere designed] have a foundation drainage system that has failed. Usually this is an outside system.Failure is almost always caused by some improper installation factors. The homeowners that I deal with are not really interested in the why, or how. they want a dry usable basement at an affordable cost to them.Hence an inside drain system.They actually work quite well. Now I don't know about New York or Pa. but where I live and Work it's required by local code that they are installed on new homes. That still leaves Me plenty of work though, because nobody including the designers, builders,and unfortunatly inspecters make sure that they are installed correctly. I agree with basement guy! I could get into that home and fix the problem with an inside drainage system and ventalation product with a minimal cost to the homeowner. Everything I did would pass inspection by the local building official, and if there were any problems I would fix them at no cost to the homeowner. I wonder, Rich do You offer that kind of warranty? How about You inspecter ? do You warranty Your inspections? What I have found With Most architects, builders and inspecters is that when a problem arises thats when all the finger pointing starts,and many homeowners that I work for will back up what I say. Maybe You guys are different, You seem to be critical of something that actually work well, not in every case but in a lot of them. Respectfully, Frank O'Pinion

It's simple. Water enters a basement for a reason. In that respect, every home is the SAME: there is a REASON in every home which has water problems. If one finds the REASON, one can remedy the problem forever. To suggest that the same "cure" is good for all "diseases" is to sell snake oil.

Admitting that a problem occurs because an OUTSIDE system has failed, and then proposing to "fix" the problem by installing an inside system is (1) admitting that the outside system, when properly installed, IS the correct approach and (2) admitting defeat, the water has won, and we'll just try to control it once it's pouring into the house.

Most new homes are built from purchased mass-produced generic architects' plans. Those architects have no clue about where the home will be built, and certainly have no part in site planning, examination of excavations, evaluation of soil conditions, assessment of possible water issues, or selection of preventive measures. So don't be bleming an anonymous architect who is located a thousand miles away for such problems. He was paid a couple of hundred bucks for his plans, and that is the end of his involvement. It's like buying Wonder bread; the bread makers have nothing to do with the sandwich. And it isn't even very good bread.

There are many aspects of the building process that could be improved dramatically if an architect who knows what he or she is doing were retained by the owner to advise about these and many other issues BEFORE it is too late. But that's off topic.

Back to the issue: a "system" which allows water to enter a space is not a cure for a problem. The cure involves finding the problem and dealing with it so that water no longer enters. Basements do not CREATE water and humidity. Humidity occurs because water enters. If your "cure" were really a cure, then why would a ventilation system be necessary? There are millions of dry basements which have no "inside" systems and no ventilation system. Were these millions of people just lucky? Or are they dry and not humid because water was not allowed to enter?