I think I have read every discussion on this subject there is. I can see every situation usally has a variable. So here is my story.
My home was built in 2000. Right away we noticed horazontial crackes in the walls. The walls were 9ft high and constructed of 12in block. The walls have 7ft of back fill against it.
As soon as we seen the crack we contacted the builder. They said no big deal its ok. It was until spring of 2004. We contacted them and recived no assistance at all. So I had a soil survey completed around the home that indicated highly exspansive soils. Next I obtained a code book witch indicated a wall of my nature in the above soil conditions sould have a certian amount of peirs or filled solid with concreate. Mine hade neither one. So I now had a inproperly built basement approved by the local building inspecter.
So after a short court battle a michigan state inspector deemed the walls should be rebuilt where block was broke and filled solid with a thin concreate containing some sort of fiber or bonding agent. The faced the block under the grade filled the walls and replaced the face of the block with 8x16x4 blocks. Finally it was filled with 3ft of sand all the way down to the footing.
Today I a faced with the wall bowing in and spliting horozontaly one block below the previously faced block. No broken blocks. No water problems. So from grade down I have a solid wall.
I know the result of the problem becuse I can see it. Now what cuased it. Well I know I have exspansive soils , but wall should have had held acording to Michigan code book. So I know I have a grade problem in front of the wall. It slopes towards the house. That needs to be fixed. This is the only thing that can be found. Sand in front of the wall is dry to the footing.
Everone that sees the wall just wants to repair the wall. Nothing said about the said grade problem. So I called an excavator. Right away they identified the grade problem. They propose digging wall out 4ft down to the footing. Back filling with pea stone, resetting the grade and installing drain tiles paralle with the wall one 8ft from wall and one 12ft from the wall to keep as much moisture as possible out of the clay. They would then top the whloe project off with 8 inches of topsoil.
Souunds like they are adressing my problem and not the result of it.
So my questions are...
If the cuase is fixed and the wall returns to the correct position sould it slill be replaced?
And if I dont replace it and it does come back how would you feel about addind a few wall ancors as an extra percuation?
Thanks everyone,
Steve

The wall isn't going to go back unless some force acts on it to move it back, or unless it is taken down and rebuilt. If they are going to dig down to the footing, why won't they remove and rebuild the wall, with proper reinforcing, if needed?

Your message isn't very clear, and I don't know what the purpose was of laying 4-inch block in front of the wall. Hiding the bowing won't make it stop or go away.

It sounds like they have properly identified the cause, which is always step #1. After that, there are probably several opinions about how to correct the damage and prevent re-occurrance, but gravel backfill, real waterproofing, and a footing drain will make a good first line of defense. Anything further, such as additional drains, are best left to the judgment of those who can see the site and are familiar with local soils and conditions.

Thanks for the advice. About the 4" block, When they removed the back fill the wall came right back. They then cut the face off the block to gain acess for pouring the wall. They then pluged the hole (the face of the block) with a 4inch block.
I would love for them to rebuild the wall its just not in my budget. They need $9000 to replace it. 400 block and a bond beam.
I plan on staying in the home for a good time and not concerned about resale at all.
My home is a modular home and the wall in question is a load bearing wall. I gives me great relif that you mentioned gravel back fill as they did also. Is the gravel help in reinforcment or more fore drainage?
Thanks again,
Steve

The gravel is both for improved drainage and to reduce the load on the wall. Since the gravel is not saturated and does not hold excess moisture, the lateral pressure exerted on the wall is less.

If the gravel is against the wall and is sufficiently wide (horizontally) is will absorb and re-distribute the lateral load from the highly expansive clay soil in addition to reducing the amount of moisture to cause the clay to expand as much.

I would not worry about the vertical load capacity of the block wall, since there more than enough strength even after cracking.

I do question the use of fibers in the "soupy concrete" (probably grout). It has to be very wet (much wetter than concrete)to insure complete filling. On paper, fibers are not really a structural reinforcement, but in the real world, it is better than just plain grout. Personally, I would insert rebar since I had good access, but I was not there and do not know the real seat-of-the-pants situation first hand.

It sound like you definitely have a repair that should work structurall.

Make sure you save all the documents from the inspector, any reports AND the bill/details for the repairs. It will be worth the money if anyone questions the obvious repairs when you go to sell.

quote:

Originally posted by concretemasonry:
The gravel is both for improved drainage and to reduce the load on the wall. Since the gravel is not saturated and does not hold excess moisture, the lateral pressure exerted on the wall is less.

If the gravel is against the wall and is sufficiently wide (horizontally) is will absorb and re-distribute the lateral load from the highly expansive clay soil in addition to reducing the amount of moisture to cause the clay to expand as much.

I would not worry about the vertical load capacity of the block wall, since there more than enough strength even after cracking.

I do question the use of fibers in the "soupy concrete" (probably grout). It has to be very wet (much wetter than concrete)to insure complete filling. On paper, fibers are not really a structural reinforcement, but in the real world, it is better than just plain grout. Personally, I would insert rebar since I had good access, but I was not there and do not know the real seat-of-the-pants situation first hand.

It sound like you definitely have a repair that should work structurall.

Make sure you save all the documents from the inspector, any reports AND the bill/details for the repairs. It will be worth the money if anyone questions the obvious repairs when you go to sell.

UN-be-lievable! Truly.
And this guy is supposedly a structural engineer,are you kidding me?

Concrete says..."I would not worry about the vertical load capacity of the block wall since there are more than enough strength after cracking" WOW!

Holy shtt man, you apparently haven`t seen block walls as described, deteriorate further once they`ve cracked and lost some of it`s lateral RESISTANCE.

Block walls can futher fail in coming months,years....they sure as shtt can.Cracks can widen,wall could bow in more due because there will STILL be some lateral pressure against it and, this is after its already cracked and lost x-amount of it`s resistance/strength! Are you nuts?

Then add the possibilty of water passing through the exterior crack(s),this also can weaken a wall in coming months,years.No 'water problems' NOW doesn`t mean no water problems in coming months,doesn`t mean no water/moisture isn`t entering...it may be but isn`t enough to puddle on floor.Just because someone doesn`t have water on floor does NOT mean no water/moisture isn`t entering into the blocks and slowly adding to deterioration of the JOINTS and blocks.

Not worry? Its a new house!

Having gravel against exterior wall will certainly lessen some lateral pressure but there will STILL be a certain amount lateral pressure because of the soil BEYOND-next to the gravel, and if its clay then it will still expand/contract.Problems due to builder,way wall was constructed,WEAK-poorly TOOLED mortar joints and possibly way it was backfilled when built.

Wall(s) could,can,do further deteriorate....some do and some don`t. Some pictures for ya http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=2200305...1847456/t_=122238283

This HO has 2 block walls that did...weaken, deteriorate few years down the road.
Pic`s 1,2,4 SIDE Wall.....had lost X-amount of LATERAL RESISTANCE due to expanding/contracting soil and roots that were left against the EXTERIOR of wall too long! Was dug up,2/3 backfilled w/gravel and waterproofed....fine. BUT it had already LOST quite a bit of its strength so,further deterioration was imminent. Waited too long! Wouldn`t matter if they put in BEAMS or carbon straps etc....wall lost too much of its lateral resistance already.

Pic 3 is front wall, was dug up....jacked up, wall rebuilt and backfilled with part gravel and sand.You see it has cracked again...neither of these walls leak.

Have seen about 1/2 of all rebuilt block walls re-crack and/or bow in, in coming months/years.Have seen quite a few bowed walls where the HO was talked into pouring concrete inside the blocks,walls bowed in more,cracks widened. Once a wall loses x-amount of its lateral-resistance one may indeed be in trouble. The longer some HO`s wait to remove-lessen the cause(s), the more likely yer screwed and will have trouble selling the house...and don`t hide it/the wall from buyer, that can only get someone sued.This is for other HO`s, not so much ECSD.

Back wall here, wall was pushing in a tad,horizontal crack at top of 1st block off fotting. Got to it before wall lost too much lateral resistance,removed clay soil,roots and back porch....the causes http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=2165857...1847456/t_=122238283

On the other hand, this HO was blcchtt`d into an INSIDE SYSTEM which did NOTHING to lessen/relieve the CAUSES of why wall is bowing in,cracks widening..excatly the kind of system Mr Concretemasonry wants people to have installed http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=2284251...1847456/t_=122238283

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofR,

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction, but Hetzel is correct... the wall will just not correct itself without opposite force from that which pushed it in. Considering wall anchors, if you are going to go that route, do it while the wall is excavated so that it can be pulled back into place. My advice is to stay away from Duragrips or other "deadman" anchor systems that go out on a level plane into the same level of soil. Then make sure that the wall is truly waterproofed, especially a block wall because they are very pourous and will allow water into the columns. I have seen grout/bentonite ooze out of blocks due to water pressure.

LW is also correct because highly-expansive soils can still exert force against gravel and continue to push on the wall, especially if it is already cracked/weak in certain spots.

This is exactly why I don't like unreinforced CMU for serious applications. It is very sensitive and doesn't have much reserve capacity for overload situations.
It is likely that this wall was built with prescriptive requirements and not even engineered. This practice is typical with virtually all homes - not just foundation walls, but the entire home.
I would not even mess around with some mesh in the wall, try to get some reinforcing in the cells and grout them solid.
That being said, I would contact a local structural engineer, NOT A CONTRACTOR.


LicensedWaterProofer-
While I have no doubt that you are knoweldgeable in your field, I doubt (with a name such as licensedwaterproofer) that your field is structural engineering. With that thought in mind, you should leave the finer nuances of the profession to the professionals.

I'm sorry, "structuraleng", but my experience with structural engineers in such situations is almost universally that they are masters of overkill, and rarely have their "solutions" made much sense except as CYA measures. Even you completely miss the point, and suggest remedial measures with not a word about relieving the conditions which caused the problem in the first place. Why is it that almost everyone is willing to skip that vital first step?

Richard Hetzel-
Your reply tells me that you are clearly not an engineer. Engineers are not "masters of overkill", but do attempt to address the issue in a manner which ensures it won't happen again.
If you note in my post, I said to contact a local structural engineer. I only said I would not use mesh, but would use reinforcement.
The structural engineer hired can assess the cause of the problem and address it appropriately. Furthermore, without structural engineers to accurately assess the loads acting on the wall, someone, such as yourself (thinking that a structural engineer - someone who is qualified by education and experience, and licensed by the state) can easily underestimate the strength and/or serviceability requirements of the design and cause serious problems.
Leave the issues that can cause a life-safety hazard to the professionals who are qualified to assess and remediate such conditions.

sorry, I meant to say that someone such as yourself (thinking that a structural engineer is a master of overkill) could pose serious life-safety problems by not knowing how to accurately and safely address the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by structuraleng:
This is exactly why I don't like unreinforced CMU for serious applications. It is very sensitive and doesn't have much reserve capacity for overload situations.
It is likely that this wall was built with prescriptive requirements and not even engineered. This practice is typical with virtually all homes - not just foundation walls, but the entire home.
I would not even mess around with some mesh in the wall, try to get some reinforcing in the cells and grout them solid.
That being said, I would contact a local structural engineer, NOT A CONTRACTOR.


LicensedWaterProofer-
While I have no doubt that you are knoweldgeable in your field, I doubt (with a name such as licensedwaterproofer) that your field is structural engineering. With that thought in mind, you should leave the finer nuances of the profession to the professionals.

lololol...yeah ok hot shot. You all KNOW basement walls,lateral pressure etc best, whatever YOU say.Subject/topic is residential basement walls/cracks http://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/AmherstSoilStudy/reports/Amherst-2005-01.pdf
2.4.3 FOUNDATION REPAIRS
..."We also observed reputable ENGINEERS` design solutions that did NOT alleviate the settlement and/or lateral pressure problems"

Yep, you guys have all/every answer and we dunno shtt. Yer supposed title is all that matters on this topic huh?

`Nother S.E. screw up, old link, if ya want it, seek it and buy it...it happened. http://www.wcpo.com/wcpo/localshows/callforaction/4bc6aof.html

'Basement walls continued to crack,builder installed an Inside System LOL...epoxy injected poured wall cracks...STILL leak!' Duh.

S.E says...'he is NOT concerned with the SIZE of the cracks or the CONTINUED cracking in basement walls'. NOT talking about hairline cracks here. 'SE....is NOT CONCERNED with the size of the cracks NOR, continued/further cracks appearing in basement walls'...Yikes!

See, some homeowners get this kinda GARBAGE-incompetence for what...$1,000? Lotsa luck.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofR,

And, structuraleng, your attempts at rebuttal now assure me that you are more of a danger than anyone, because you still fail to admit that you skipped a VITAL FIRST STEP in selecting a remedy for a foundation wall failure, and that is to remove or mitigate the cause of the problem, before implementing a solution. In this example, expansive soils were present and caused the wall failure. If I read you correctly, you would leave those very same expansive soils in place and attempt to overpower them, rather than to remove them and relieve the excessive loads on the wall. Well, that is certainly a possible solution, but it is even more certainly overkill. I rest my case.

I didn't address your "Vital First Step" because I don't know the particulars of the case. Whatever mitigation that would require is completely exclusive of the structural rehabilitation of the wall.

And yes, I do know all about lateral earth pressures, how to calc them, how to distribute and resist them. A contractor passing himself as an engineer and giving engineering advice is VERY dangerous.

quote:

I'm sorry, "structuraleng", but my experience with structural engineers in such situations...

Note that I speak from experience gained over nearly a half-century in this business. It is not an opinion, it is experience which tells me that if I want to stay anywhere near budget, to not let a structural engineer within a mile of my projects, all of which, by some miracle, have managed to remain upright and serviceable. Then there was the client's metal building which leaked water all over his electrical stage scenery equipment. The engineer suggested a bunch of steps, all CYA in nature, which did nothing to assess the actual cause of the leakage, and which would have cost many thousands. He wanted to remove the roof, install plywood sheathing throughout, and re-install the roof, among other things. I suggested knee-braces be installed at the truss-to-column connections...guess what? Problem solved for a few hundred bucks. See what I mean about overkill?

LOLOL...what a liar. Never said i was an SE or Architect or Electrician or anything other than what i`ve redundantly said, geez, some people are flat out full of shtt.

As i said, an S. E. will NOT necessarily come to correct diagnosis `n remedy for these sitiuations. You wanna dismiss 30 yrs of watching/repairing basement walls crack,leak,bow then thats yer 2 cents...a handful of US have MUCH more experience on this-subject than some of you S.E...seen quite a few of you S E blow the reason(s)and corrective means of repair on bsmt walls and HO`s were out that much more money they paid the SE and still had same problems,click lrb-link and read SE design solutions did not alleviate problems.

lololol...yeah ok hot shot. You all KNOW basement walls,lateral pressure etc best, whatever YOU say.Subject/topic is residential basement walls/cracks http://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/AmherstSoilStudy/reports/Amherst-2005-01.pdf
2.4.3 FOUNDATION REPAIRS
--> "We also observed reputable ENGINEERS` design solutions that did NOT alleviate the settlement and/or lateral pressure problems"

Yep, you guys have all/every answer and we dunno shtt. Yer supposed title is all that matters on this topic huh?

`Nother S.E. screw up, old link, if ya want it, seek it and buy it...it happened. http://www.wcpo.com/wcpo/localshows/callforaction/4bc6aof.html

'Basement walls continued to crack,builder installed an Inside System LOL...epoxy injected poured wall cracks...STILL leak!' Duh.

--> S.E says...'he is NOT concerned with the SIZE of the cracks or the CONTINUED cracking in basement walls'. NOT talking about hairline cracks here. 'SE....is NOT CONCERNED with the size of the cracks NOR, continued/further cracks appearing in basement walls'...Yikes!

See, some homeowners get this kinda GARBAGE-incompetence for what...$1,000? Lotsa luck.[/QUOTE]

Wow, you really should take an English class. You need to have a much better command of the English language (both grammar and mature sentence structure) if you ever want anyone to take you seriously.
While there is anecdotal evidence of incompetence in any profession it doesn't change the fact that engineers have education, training, and experience that laypersons do not. Being a "licensed water proofer" does not give you some special knowledge of the structural behavior/strength of foundation walls....... it just means you know how to water proof them.

So far, very little help for people who requested some, very many personal attacks and insults, a good deal of overkill, proving my point about structural engineers, and a condescending attitude that is most unbecoming. If that is your idea of what a forum participant should be providing, just carry on as you have been. I'm sure you're just piling up the fans in the cheering section.

Structuraleng, your "holier than thou" attitude is very tiresome. One day you'll learn than maybe you should pay attention to field guys rather than try and belittle them. You'll find that they have a lot to teach you.

quote:

This is exactly why I don't like unreinforced CMU for serious applications. It is very sensitive and doesn't have much reserve capacity for overload situations.
It is likely that this wall was built with prescriptive requirements and not even engineered. This practice is typical with virtually all homes - not just foundation walls, but the entire home.
I would not even mess around with some mesh in the wall, try to get some reinforcing in the cells and grout them solid.
That being said, I would contact a local structural engineer, NOT A CONTRACTOR.


LicensedWaterProofer-
While I have no doubt that you are knoweldgeable in your field, I doubt (with a name such as licensedwaterproofer) that your field is structural engineering. With that thought in mind, you should leave the finer nuances of the profession to the professionals.

The post above was my first post on this thread and I was attacked for it. I came here with no intention of bothering anyone. While I can (and do) appreciate input from ANYONE, there really does need to be a line in the sand that lets a contractor know where his expertise ends. I know where my expertise ends and I never tell a contractor how to do his job. A contractor should not tell an engineer how to do his.
That being said, read my first post again and you tell me if it was worthy of the immediate attacks that it received.
This board is not very friendly.

Lots of friendly people join us on this board and have no problems.

And Jay, you're absolutly right. Among the best answers to questions from the hands-on guys I've been honored to work with has been "I don't know...what do you suggest?" If one asks that question and keeps one's ears open and one's brain engaged, there is no end to what one can learn from the guys and gals who actually have to do it.

And you, Jay, and LicensedWaterproofR, and concretemasonry, Maintenance6, Home Care Club, tileguybob, and a host of others are right in that same category, even though I've not had the honor of working with any of you/them.