Home Care-

I think the erosion process you are describing is similar to the "cold water erosion" you get on asphalt pavement.

In many areas where the tubing is used, the tubing is set in mortar when the block are laid to eliminate free leakage out of the cores. Some producers also make a special solid top block with a raised web on the bottom amd molded holes on one or both sides for the tubing. The head joints on the top of the block are left open, but solid portion stops debris from clogging the drainage along the footing top,

The NJ - PA area (and some other areas) is notorious for the block made from low quality cinders years ago. I doubt if the cinders met any specifications and often block were made with thick face shells and pear shaped cores just to meet strength requirements. The chemistry (usually acidic) of the cinders was also not good for durable concrete.

Fortunately, the use of cinders is very rare. Good natural aggregates are just more economical and the more costly manufactured lightweight aggregates can make a superior product if the use requires these properties. You can even go 20 stories with 6" loadbearing walls if because of the current manufaturing process and material available.

Since the exterior draintile can't always catch the water under the floor your best shot at getting the water out of there is installing a sump pump with some lateral drains installed across the floor. Use lots of stone!

I'm a new member reviving an old discussion. I got to this forum while doing research on Permaflex. Here's my situation. I have a 10 year old ranch built on a hill. When I built the house I paid close attention to the basement work. There is plenty of stone around and under the basement. Numerous concrete tiles were set into the poured footings to collect the water outside. All of these were tied to flexible drain tiles under the poured floor and end up in a sum pump. Because I'm so high up the sump only runs once or twice a year when we have heavy rains and the ground is saturated. I was a pipeline contractor and personally trenched in a drain tile system from all my downspouts, The tile has great slop and empties well away from the house. Before backfill of the basement, the contractor sealed the outside of the basement wall(concrete block) and laid insulation. The grade work was split between myself and a landscaper. I stressed maintaing drainage away from the house and not filling to high on the foundation. Sounds perfect.

For the first several years there was no sign of water. Now 10 year later 3 of the 4 walls are damp in various spots, particularly near the floor joints. The floor is dry except for a few inches by the joints. The one wall that is dry has the most slope. The 2 walls that have the most moisture have the least slop. One side wall has a garden with a sidewalk bordering it. That continues around to the back and meets up with an expensive 20X30 decorative brick patio. So, even though I'm high on a hill, these are sources of water collection. What do I? What's going to last more than 10 years?

I hesitate calling a basement contractor because of the expense. I really don't want my brick patio torn out. The moisture is not a major problem, but I would like to paint the basement and brighten it up, maybe even finish it. Permaflex seems like the perfect solution. At the rate my basement became damp, I'm sure there's not a lot of negative pressure.

Key words: "...the contractor sealed the outside of the basement walls..." With what? If it was ONLY dampproofing, and not a waterproof membrane, it's likely that the dampproofing has simply broken down, and as usual, the only real fix lies outside the wall. Everything else is band-aids.

i tried the suggestions on this site for dealing with the outside wall by brush scrubbing and throwing a tar membrane down and over the footings then using visiqueen and backfilling with peastone and i still got leaks albeit less than before. richard and others here will tell you i must've missed something but i didn't. there was nothing left i could do from the outside so i found permaflex and applied that on the inside and the leaks and any dampness stopped completely.

its a small cost to first try the permaflex from the inside and if it doesn't work you can always go the outside wall route.

I like your advice, Rikky. After all the research and reading all the discussions, I find there is no perfect solution. The dampness on my walls is so minor, if it weren't for the fact I wanted to paint the walls, there would be no problem. My house is high on a ridge and if my geology classes in hydrology hold true, there is no ground water. Just occasional rain water and the dampness took 10 years. I'm not tearing out my patio and shrubbery. So, I either leave it or paint it with the most durable product I can find. Thanks

for dampness it should definitely do the trick. key is to make sure you remove as much prior wall coatings are you can first. sanitred seeps into the masonry capillaries and seals them so there's nothing to "peel off" down the road.

Can you tell me about your experience applying it? Did you use the LRB product for the floor/wall joints? If so, what did you use to apply the proper bead? I have a fairly clean wall, no prior paint. I plan on using a propane weed burner to dry out the few damp spots I have.

Thanks

Minor or not, The wall is leaking. And it will get much worse as time goes on.

Any dampness experianced that is occuring from the outside damp proof failure will only result in additional leaks at a later date if you decide to damp proof the interior only. The reason for the dampness near the floor is the dampproofing has begun to fail near the foundation. This will only get worse as time goes on and you will find through hydrolic action the surface of the interior wall will begin to detoriate as the damproofing applied inside does not allow the moisture to escape.

A very good example of this is when brick that has been sealed on the outside of a house begins to spall. Because the brick is much more brittle then cement it happens much faster. But the same happens to cement or block walls. By then your interior walls and finishes are up and will need to be torn down to fix the mold and damage that will occur.
Fixing the exterior is a one time repair that will last longer then you would ever own the home if done correctly.

To attempt to remove any prior coatings on the wall is impossible. What ever paint product you have applied has plugged these capillairs and you cannot get it out unless you grind the surface clean. The warranty on this product will be void if they find out the walls were painted or sealed in anyway before their product was applied.

Anyway good luck with what ever method you choose.

i pretty much applied it according to the directions. it was cinder block so i put the first application across everything then the second coat to seal the joints. the joints for me were anywhere the cement joined the cinder blocks. for the floor/wall joint i started using a ziploc bag to squeeze out the mixture but it quickly got messy so i used my finger to ensure the joint was covered by the mixture. then you cover everything with a 3rd application (same as the 1st application) and you're done. i haven't had a bead of water penetrate the interior since.

you can follow the professionals advice on this board but you could be looking at $5,$10 or even $15k and still not fully stop the leaks. if you're just looking at dampness i don't see the point of going through all the trouble.

>>This will only get worse as time goes on and you will find through hydrolic action the surface of the interior wall will begin to detoriate as the damproofing applied inside does not allow the moisture to escape.

has water in the capillaries of masonry ever been proven to deteriorate the substrate? i've never seen definitive proof.

Two or three months doesn't constitute "time". Two or three years is "time", and in two or three years we won't be seeing Rikky on this forum because his "fix" started to fail and he will know who was right and who was wrong. There have been many posts by a professional waterproofer with decades of experience about the cost of repairing a leaking foundation, and I don't remember any of his jobs costing more than about $3500, and many were done for considerably less. And they remove and replace shrubbery, driveways, patios, etc. As Home Care Club said, I wish you luck whichever way you proceed, but if I had to wager, I know where my money would be. There is just one FIX...all the rest are band-aids.

richard my fix hasn't failed and i don't expect it to. the capillaries in the substrate are sealed there's no way for the water to enter my basement.

a neighbor on my block has had leaks in his basement walls for over 50 years and his house hasn't crumbled down. french drains also let the water flow freely into the house and just pump it out are houses with these also going to fall down?

Thanks Rikky. I've ordered a sample just to get the feel for the application. Sounds like you pretty much followed the recommended how to's..

As long as the water is allowed to flow freely it will not cause the same issues as water that is trapped and not able to move. That is called a swimming pool not a basement. What will happen when enough water builds up behind the sealed wall and fails to drain out will be excessive pressure on the wall and the water attempting to seak another entrance point elsewhere on the walls or floor. Or a failure of the structure due to pressure. Your simply masking a larger problem not fixing it. Its the hidden issue were concerned about for you.
Is the company going to warranty the wall once it fails or if the water comes in at another location? Do not think so.
Good luck with what ever method you choose. But remember you asked professional advice from folks that have dozens of decades experiance combined that have nothing to loose or gain by providing answers to your questions. Were not saying this product will not work by stopping water entry. Its just going to mask another more important issue that will eventually require an answer and bite you where you sit..

Basement walls do not create water. If, after doing the exterior waterproofing, you still had water in the space, then water is still getting into the wall, only now it can't get out. The process of failure has already begun...it has to. You have created a situation where the walls will be full of water, and sooner or later, it will find a weak spot and guess what? Concrete blocks are not designed to hold water indefinitely. The same process will take place in the other gentleman's walls, except his is a basement and not a stairwell.

The neigbor's situation is entitely different. He hasn't repaired his walls properly, but at least he hasn't sealed the water inside the walls as you have. His water comes in (along with vermin, insects and maybe radon gas), causes high basement humidity which can lead to mold isues, and then is pumped out. Your water, and that of Mueller, will be trapped within the walls, and just remain there, ultimately causing some kind of failure. The only question is whether the water will find another way into the basement before the blocks begin to fail.

I'm not trying to fight city hall, but water cannot get trapped against my basement walls. As stated previously my home is up on a ridge. The basement floor is 50' above the low point in front and there is over 100' drop in the back. I'm not an expert, but I did learn about hydrology in my geology classes. Water flows down hill. All ground has some moisture and during certain infrequent events the ground can become saturated here. This December we had a lot of snow with a large rapid melt followed by rain in early January. The concrete block became damp on my back wall down by the foundation. There is a brick patio in back and it's one of the flatter areas adjoining the house. But again it's 100 feet up. So over time it will drain away from the house. The dampness is so minor that a small dehumidifier is drying out the block. In the 10 years since I've built this house, the appearance of dampness has shown less than a dozen times. I've ordered a propane weed torch and plan on completely drying the interior. I'm willing to bet, weather pending that I may not see that dampness again for a year.

I didn't say "trapped against" your basement walls, I said trapped INSIDE your basement walls, and that is exactly what will happen. If you SEE dampness inside your wall, it is evidence that the wall has become completely wetted from the outside to the inside. The wall cannot create moisture. It is getting into your foundation somewhere, and what you will be doing is blocking its only avenue of escape. This is a classic example of treating a symptom before determining the disease, except that we know the disease. Water is getting into your foundation when it should not be doing so, and there is only one place to stop that from happening. And it ain't inside.

Do not fool youself thinking because you are on a hill, your above the water table. WE have had homes that were build on top of a Mt. ridge and leaked worse then those that were built in the valley below.
Be carefull using that torch. You can get into trouble real quick using this. It can cause the cement to spall and fracture. The cement can explode and fly into the air with a fair amount of force.
Keep a garden hose as well on the ready for any chance of a fire as well. Be safe not sorry.

I've been in underground construction most of my life. I ran my grandpas dragline when I was 10 years old and have been a pipeline contractor for 35 years. Having done much of my own grade and trench work here and seeing my basement dug, I know there is no ground water near my basement.

I also have seen concrete explode with intense heat. I'm more concerned about burning my house down. I'll probably hold off on the torch idea.

But I'm still optimistic because the dehumidifier is doing a good job drying. So if there is water trapped in the concrete block, it would reappear after drying the interior. We shall see.