I've been reading this and other boards for some time trying to determine the best way to fix a wet basement. My house was built in 1971. I bought it in 2000. Initially there was a small leak at the block/floor joint at the front of the house after a heavy rain. Although water comes onto the floor only 1 or 2 times a year, the efflorescence has progressed across the entire front wall in the first cement block, and in some areas is up on on higher blocks now. The interior tile was jetted and video was done and is fine. Sump pump is new. The only companies that I can locate in the Lansing MI area want to intall the interior drain system. I"ve had 4 "waterproofing" companies out and that's all they offer. One contractor does do some outside work, but is very concerned about block wall stability and the lack of "anchor bolts" if work is done on the outside. I understand that exterior tile can get blocked, but no one seems to fix this from the outside. Are there any type of contractors that can give me an unbiased (i.e. they're not out to sell me something) assessment of the problem? Are there engineers or someone who does this type of work and can tell me if the walls are stable? Has anyone had exterior basement wall waterproofing done in the mid Michigan area that can recommend a reputable company? Is exterior "damproofing" adequate or are there better waterproofing methods? I am unable to do the repairs myself, so will have to hire the needed expertise. The problen only gets worse over the years, so I would like to get it fixed right.
Thanks for any assistance that is offered.

quote:

The interior tile was jetted and video was done and is fine.

Not sure what that means.

quote:

I understand that exterior tile can get blocked, but no one seems to fix this from the outside.

Again, not sure what is meant by "exterior tile".

Basically, "inside" methods are only water control methods, and do not stop water or other joys like insects, vermin or radon gas from entering your home. The one and only way to stop the intrusion of water is to work OUTSIDE. Normal dampproofing, if done well, MIGHT work, but while the foundation is excavated, you may as well add a ´waterproof membrane over the dampproofing, but the first order of business is to locate cracks, and seal them.

I am hoping "LicensedWaterproofer" sees and responds to your questions. He is the resident expert on the topic, and he is located not far from you.

This house has interior tile under the basement floor around the interior perimeter that drains into the sump pump. This was part of original construction of the house. There are bleeder lines that drain into the interior tile (as seen on video), so the assumption is that there is exterior perimenter footing tile as well that drain through the bleeder lines into the interior tile, designed to be drained into sump pum and pumped out. I think this is pretty standard construction for this area in the 1970's. The company that did the jet and video inspection of the interior tile thought there may be problem with exterior tile, but they do not handle that kind of work and I haven't found anyone that does. I don't get much water draining into the sump pump except during heavy rains, when the water also leaks on the floor. Most of the time though the problem is just the growing efflorescence which is symptomatic for water in the blocks from what I understand.

marigold,

efflorescence on block wall(s) has NOTHING to do with the possibility of any outside drain tiles being collgged/broken, none! anyone who says this doesn`t have much of a clue.

you say one contractor is.....'very concerned' about block wall stability? only reason to be 'concerned' about the stability of a block wall is if its pushed/bowed in......alot! i don`t mean an inch or two, it would have to be bowed in 4-6++ inches to have some concern so, is this wall bowed?

Hmm, through all these years i have never made a statement like THAT to a homeowner. Yes, i have said to a handful that when their wall was bowed in quite a bit that it, the wall has lost some-alot of its lateral-resistance and might/will need some other type of support/help to.... TRY....and keep wall in place. This goes with excavating by HAND--shovels, waterproofing the outside of wall and backfilling w/peastone.

Thats what will help lessen/relieve expanding-contracting Soil pressure, yeah, getting RID of the expanding `n contracting soil, lol What won`t help relieve/lessen soil pressure and tree roots is any kind of drain tile or baseboard system!

only reasons i can see why someone/contractor would say this would be to either.....hike up the price/cost or, they really rather do an Inside system and/or, they really don`t have much-any REAL experience in waterproofing block walls or any other, regardless of how much supposed-experience they may say they have.

Is this a brick house?

Almost always,water that shows up on basement floor at/near the cold-joint (where the bottom of bsmt wall and floor meet) is there due to, water that is entering INTO the hollow-blocks on the Outside THROUGH crack(s) or other openings. Often people will NOT see ANY visible cracks on the Inside of basement wall BUT, that does NOT mean there isn`t a hairline or 1-2+ inch crack on the Outside.

So...anyone who deduces that there cannot be a problem on the outside of a block wall simply because there is no visible crack on the INSIDE is very inexperienced.

It is through these outside cracks and any other openings on the outside where water FIRST enters into the hollow blocks, stays Inside the cells of the blocks and due to gravity, falls through the lower-blocks until it accumulates in the last/bottom course...yeah, where the bottom of wall and floor meet.

I know the Inside GOOFS like to BS folks and tell them when there is water at-along cold-joint/cove, its due to a problem under the floor....well, thats bs. 99 outta 100 times the problem is on the Outside-cracks etc AND,when you/others have efflorecsence/mold etc on the WALL then the problem IS on the Outside.

Do a few basements get water on the floor, coming UP through any 'openings' in the floor? Yes, MOST of those are because there is a blockage in lateral line under the floor which causes water to accumulate, then rise UP-Through any floor openings. They need to FIRST snake through storm trap/cleanout to try and free the blockage but like i say, this has ZERO to do with water entering through cracks on outside of walls,efflorescence on walls etc.

Not only in Lansing area but also in many other states, the Inside drain tile & Baseboard systems w/sumps are what MOST companies....want to/rather do and/or.....is all they`ve been exposed to/learned from others. Inside Systems cost MUCH LESS because there is...much LESS Materials invloved and much LESS skilled-LABOR required to install these simple water--Diverting techniques. This is what has increasingly happened over, i say, the last 15-20 years, especially the last 5-10.

These inside systems do Not stop/prevent water-moisture from entering through outside cracks `n other openings...gotta go Outside to ACTUALLY 'Waterproof' these openings. It is these same openings which allow water in that cause mold,efflorescence, same openings which allow the pathways for radon gas to enter and for insects to enter.

Think about this one....if your ROOF was leaking, would you stay Inside and go up to attic (or part of ceiling where water was dripping in) and....try `n patch it or divert the water into, say, lol, a bucket?

OR, would you go outside and get up on the roof and find the opening(s) where the water was entering and fix it-patch roof/new roof?

If someone opted to allow the water to continue to enter through the roof/ceiling then....what is MOST likely to happen to the wood under the shingles? Would MOLD be more likely to grow? Would insects etc have easier access into the house? SURE!!!

Well, same thing applies to basement walls and, add the fact that radon gas from the soil can enter as well. If you want to discuss this further you can call me if ya like, let me know `n i`1l post number, i could possibly come out to look at this Fri or Sat but whatever you do, from what you`ve stated here, you do NOT need any kind of Inside system/method.

http://www.marshallconcrete.com/41

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B33_What_is_Efflorescence_...sonry_Surfaces.shtml

http://www.continentalcaststone.com/csi/33.html

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LicensedWaterproofer,

'LicensedWaterproofer' I wanted to come out of lurking to say I'm a huge fan. I know what I am doing next Spring, digging out my back wall and checking/repairing cracks that must be there (the mold and dampness tells me so!). Joker, thanks for the pictures. Once that is done, I will replace the carpet. You see I don't have a basement. I have a house 1/2 bured into a hill.
I do not fear hard work. Thanks guys, this topic was very helpful.

I also like most of the advice from LicensedWaterproofer. Wherever at all practical, the only real answer to a foundation or basement water problem is found on the outside of the wall. Our semi-rural (circa 1970) house had too frequent puddles at the junction of back wall and floor, and sometimes water backing up out of floor drains as well. The perimiter drain tiles and the underfloor systems are tied together. I ran nearly 120' of a commercial auger out thrugh the drain, and it came back clean without hitting any obstructions. Without paying for the video, though, I knew that there had to be a problem with the part of the system used to carry water away from the house. So I dug.

This is what I found: The original system had been constructed with clay tiles set in sand, with three branches radiating out from junctions beginning just a few feet from the foundation. Whoever laid the tiles had failed to cover the top 2/3 of the gaps, so that material from above had entered. Mercifully, all the foundation tile appeared to be clean, in both directions from a 4-way connection. They were in stone/pea gravel. The result over years was to form a black thick sludge which began only a yard from the house. Water would seep through at a low rate, but larger flows resulting from perionds of heavy rain could not be digested. The auger had come back clean, since the last few feet to the cleanout in the basement floor had standing clear water.

The solution was to remove the old tile and use solid PVC, which terminated in a very large dry well away from the septic system and over 60' from the house. It remains a project I am proud of, as we have had zero water issues for over 5 years now. Laying pipe 8' below grade is not for the faint of heart, nor is it for anyone who does not constantly consider all safety related issues. But having a correctly functioning system certainly makes it worth the effort. The added bonus was that the opinions/solutions from "professionals" had all included tearing up the basement floor to replace the iron pipes there, and that was certainly not needed. Oh yea, and I saved well more than half of the lowest open-ended "estimate", and got to operate rented excavators and a Gehl bucked loader.

So my only partial departure from the comments made by LicensedWaterproofer is that the root of the problem may be further downstream than the condition of the exterior wall itself. It "may" be in the part of the foundation drainage system which is supposed to prevent water from staying near the basement wall in the first place. I am not a fan of the "reverse swimming-pool" (water outside, dry inside) concept. While the wall should be as waterproof as is possible on the outside, I insist on keeping the "pool" drained as much as can be accomplished.

Deb & Handy,

haha @ 'lurking'

we try, best of luck

I found the postings all to be of interest. I would, however, like to weigh in on a few points which I believe were not addressed:

1. The most frequent cause of water entry into a basement is water accumulation at the foundation wall, where the exterior grade of the yard meets it. Often this is due to the fact that downspouts from the rain gutters at the eaves do not lead the water outward, away from the house, but, instead, dump the water out at the foundation, where it percolates down through the back-filled soil immediately outside of the foundation, down to the bottom of the wall, where it finds it's way into the basement. The simple remedy is to ensure that the water is directed outward, away from the foundation, at least two feet away from it.

2. Often, changes to the landscaping have the effect of changing the drainage plane for surface water. This can be either due to incompetance on the part of the builder, in not sloping the exterior grade of the yard away from the house, or due to changes to the exterior pitch of the yard brought on by the homeowner, who may have levelled the yard, or paved a patio area for the purpose of making it a child-friendly play space, or may have removed plantings which used to absorb ground water and draw it away from the foundation. An addition to the house can alter the way surface water behaves on the property. Since water always flows via gravity, which is to say, down hill, the simple act of causing it to flow away from, instead of toward, the house, can often take care of the problem of water intrusion.

3. Retentive soils, which are high in clay content, will always tend to cause water intrusion, since they are, by definition, poor at draining the water away, but, instead, serve as a channel to guide the water downward along the foundation to the point of least resistance. If water accumulates there, and freezes, it can cause failure of even a poured concrete foundation, via the mechanism of frost-heaving. (Water is at it's most dense when it is at 37 degrees F. It continues to expand as it cools down to freezing, causing it to exert tremendous force on anything that tries to contain it).

4. Too many homes are build down-slope from the roadway, sometimes with driveways that lead downward from the curb cut toward the house, or with yards that do the same. If either scenario occurs, then a swale in the yard, or a drive-over grate with schedule 40 PVC pipe is needed to catch and divert the water around and away from the house.

5. Although there is not much that can be done with retentive soils, the other issues raised here are all common-sense things that only a visual inspection can determine the need for, and are, for the most part, less intrusive, and less expensive, than the water-proofing step. If all other mitigating factors have been addressed, and the problem persists, then the obvious need is for the expensive remedy of competant waterproofing, with proper licensing and insurance of the one(s) doing the work. In other words, start small and simple, then work your way up as the need shows itself.

Hope this helps.

WJ,

appreciate yer points but i disagree with some statements ...and i mean NO harm-disrespect

first, if i may, how many bsmt waterproofing jobs have ya done and had to guarantee for long period of time?

ok...your statement "the most frequent cause of water entry...is water accumualtion at found. wall-grade..."

sorry but, the most frequent cause of water ENTRY are...Outside Entryways into the home/basement..crack(s) and other Direct openings into the home allow water to enter a basement, thats the most frequent problem/cause, title as one wishes.FIND and seal/waterproof/tuckpoint etc ALL-any of these ENTRYWAYS cuz, nobody on this planet can keep all water away from the entire depth of bsmt wall. Its these SAME Entryways that also allow radon to enter, insects to enter and enough moisture to enter which could cause mold/efflorescence/paint peeling etc.

You say..."simple remedy" ? lol, most wish!

even if you, as you say, TRY and direct some-Surface water away for several ft, that same surface water is still gonna go into the ground and wick/percolate/travel sideways and down, not just down, in all directions incl`g back towards the house, underneath a raised-grade, underneath a drivway/patio etc. I know this cuz we`ve seen it, for decades. For most and...i do mean Most, there are NO simple remedies, sorry, wish it was different. Will a few lucky ones be able to 'divert enough' water away from....the openings? yeah, a few will, most won`t. Thats mostly due to either they have sand agst their bsmt walls(when built-good UNDERGROUND drainage) or they have alot of roots from trees `n bushes that can soak up LOTS of water.

As for clay soil...i disagree that they, as ya said "channel to guide water downward". As we`ve witnessed time and again, clay soils swell/expand when wet, contract when dry. We`ve often dug in clay soil where it was very wet for first 2-3 ft then, dry rest of way down along bsmt wall.The opposite has also occurred but less often. My point with clay is, it doesn`t 'guide' water downward.

Peastone/gravel/sand on the OTHER hand, will absolutely guide water downward, quickly!

Clay soil all by itself, without water, does create some pressure, its called "at-rest" pressure.

and ya say.. "not much can be done w/retentive soils"...? Well, what about removing the expanding/contracting soil along entire depth of a wall thats bowing in, also on the way down one will remove any tree roots and other possible crap many-not all builders like to toss in instaed of hauling away, pieces of concrete,blocks,bricks,some pretty big boulders,wood and other crap that impedes water from getting to drain tiles AND, some of that crap causes more lateral pressure.

Hand dig it up, haul it away, waterproof the wal and backfill w/peastone....thats what can be done to lessen/relieve pressure...get rid of retentive soil against the wall.

Ya say.. "Only a visual inspection can help detrmine need"? Inspection from who? a Hm inspector who has never done a waterproofing job in their life? i`m not trying to kick people here, just trying to get at the truth ok.

an inspection by an expert who does this kind of work, one who has seen-worked in all kinds of soil etc, to me, has a much better clue than any Hm-city inspector, with all due respect to any. It just kills me sometimes that quite a few of these guys 'think' they have alot of knowledge on this subject when, they certainly do Not....got milk?

Many good points from those above. Again with no disrespect I would like to add my own. I don't know how they regulate things in Michigan But in Illinois Home Inspectors are licensed and tested regularly. A home inspector would be able to spot potential problems without bias. Some things that come to my mind (touched upon above somewhat ) Gutters; need to be clean, secure, installed properly and carry water away from foundation about 8'. Not 2'. Grading; soil, driveway and side walks need to carry water away from foundation
That was just some quick first thoughts. But consider a home inspection and he probably will find many other repair items or safty concerns around your home.

Replying to Licensed Waterproofer who asked:
"Is this a brick house?"
No, the house isn't brick.
If you let me know how to contact you, I could do so with more questions.

I've recently had a suggestion by a builder that a solution to stabilize the wall and maybe help with leak would be "cement grout injected into the cement blocks". Would this be of any benefit?

Thanks!!

I am in deperate need of information on repairing cracked and bowed concrete block basement wall. The basement was finished by the builder i.e. drywall, carpet etc. We recently removed a section of drywall and found that the wall was cracked and bowed inward about 1-2 inches. We would like to do the repairs ourselves, we plan to excavate the exterior of the wall to the footing,filling the exterior cracks, use waterproofing material on the wall, apply vinyl barrier,insure that there are drainage tiles or pvc pipe along the foundation,backfill with pea gravel,then install a french drain,and backfill with top soil. Inside we plan to fill the cracks with epoxy, install carbon fiber strips to stabilize the bowed wall and then apply waterproofing material to the entire wall before reinstalling the insulation and drywall. I would to know if these are the correct proceedure to do the repairs. I also would appreciate any info on the pros and cons of rebuilding a section of this wall as oppposed to trying to repair the wall. The blocks themselves are not cracked from what we can see at this point it appears that the cracks are in the mortar joints.

I follow Licenced Waterproofers advice too, and the architects and engineers I have talked to since seem to echo his sentiment on waterproofing, but I have to disagree with one point:

The bowing wall thing... Mine was bowed a little... like way less than an inch and I thought that was insignificant. Then after I waterproofed the whole wall collapsed into my basement. Homeowners insurance doesnt cover that either, so I have to foot the bill to fix it...

in any case, if there are any structural concerns about the wall, get them looked into by a good engineer before you do anything... the consensus here is that the wall wouldve fallen in sometime soon even if I didnt waterproof, which couldve killed someone if the basement were dry and finished...

You can see my post on this board for pictures if you are interested!

I did see the pics and condemned sign you posted. I called both a structural engineering co. and waterproofing company to come take a look at my wall and if I don't get it repaired,then I will probably be posting pics of my collapsed wall.

tubbs, it's a question of the age of the house and the rapidity that things are happening with your wall. The possible causes of a cracked and bowed wall are:
1. Hydrostatic (water) pressure outside the wall.
2. Earth pressure outside the wall.
3. Heavy equipment running too close outside tha wall.
4. Tree roots outside the wall.
5. Insufficient wall thickness or reinforcing.

Where your wall is cracked and bowed, what is the distance from the basement floor to the grade outside the wall? Do you know how thick the wall is? Is it concrete block? How old is the house? I'm assuming you have no way to know when the cracking and bowing might have begun, or do you? What is the direction of your first floor joists relative to the bowed wall? Is there bowing in only one place? Is there any slope to the grade outside the bowed wall which runs upward from the wall? Is there anything such as a porch or stoop, or even a driveway, adjacent to the bowed wall outside?

You should be monitoring the cracking and bowing to see if it is progressing or stable. Take a long straight-edge, such as a carpenter's level, and place it vertically in the area of the bowing. Then answer and take written notes of these questions:
1. How much is the wall bowed?
2. Is there any lateral displacement in the (I'm assuming) blocks? (Are any of them shifting sideways?)
3. How many courses of block have cracks in the mortar joints? How far down from the top of the wall?
4. Measure the widest crack, if it is measurable.

Do this at least daily, and you will probably learn whether the bowing is continuing or if it is stable. If it is continuing, consider it an emergency, and get someone there to advise you as soon as possible.

It is important to try to learn the cause of the cracking/bowing before deciding on a solution. In "rffffff's" case, the cause might possibly have been a wall with insufficient reinforcing for its height. Therefore, all his waterproofing work did not relieve the possible cause of the problem, which may have been earth pressure, not hydrostatic pressure, against a wall that was not sufficiently strong to resist it.

The answers to the questions I have asked might suggest a possible cause. As a GUESS, I'd say the cause is possibly not hydrostatic pressure, because you say nothing about any water entering your basement. But that's only a guess...there is no substitute for detailed on-site examination of ALL conditions which may be causing the cracking/bowing.

richard, thanks for taking time to respond to my post. I can't answer all the questions now, I will try to answer some. The house is 21 years old,the soil in my area is primarily clay, there is a covered stoop adjacent to the bowed/cracked wall and there is a bermed area about 4ft high running along the side of the home,there is about 5ft of lawn between the house and berm. The house is vinyl siding with about 2ft of brick below the siding to ground level. The exterior foundation wall is concrete block below the brick. I think the foundation wall is 8ft. high by 20 ft. long, I don't know how the floor joists in the room above the wall are running because the ceiling is finished drywall. The interior of the bowed wall is wet and has been apparently for some time due to the mold on the drywall which we found after removing a large mirror on the damaged wall and the wall itself after removing the drywall. I am not aware of any kind of interior drainage system nor is the a sump pump, I had never had any indication of any water or moisture in the basement before and I.. think it is there now due to the cracks in the foundation. I did have foundation problems before this situation that I was told had occured due to the exspansion and contraction of the clay soil. The house is now sitting on 28 helical steel piers. I had the peirs installed in 2003, and of course to install the piers the entire foundation was excavated. At that time no one informed me of any bowing or cracking of the front foundation wall even though is was clearly visble to the footers and i feel fairly certain they would have in order to make more money in addition to the $28,000.00 for the piers, but maybe not. I feel fairly certain after placing the piers the wall was simply backfilled with the original dirt as I never saw any material brought in for any waterproofing or drainage around the house. I did have Ram Jack and a waterproofing co. come out and look at the wall. Both seem to think the wall is not going to collapse at this time but that unless it is repaired it will at some time in the future. Ram Jack propose to excavate the front and right side wall down to the footing, install a new foundation drain running off the right rear corner, clean the exterior of the wall and apply a waterproofing agent. on the interior of the foundation they want to install 8 carbon fiber strips and seal interior cracks with non shrink grout. The waterproofing co. has not sent a written proposal but verbally talked about installing an interior drainage system, a sump pump and steel beams to stabilize the bowed wall. Waiting to hear from our friend licensed waterproofer on that one! Final thought, my momma always told me if you want something done right...DO IT YOURSELF!

-Dave,Rfff

same here..no disrespect to you/others...
1)Bias? i`ve had NO bias for nearly 3 decades, i merely give the facts. some don`t have ALL the facts or, they think they do, therefore some will disagree.Let me add that depending on which waterproofing co. HO`s call and have over for est may well indeed be biased. Not just biased but nowhere close to being an expert!

2)who does the work AND....Guarantees it? Not any home/city inspector i`ve ever met. the contractors with decades of hands on experience AND who are honest is where HO`s will find the best answers/solutions... yes a proven track record in this business is what they need not a monday morning QB.

Hey, i`m a great Mon. morning QB on the NFL. I`ve never coached and played very little, i 'think' i know the game BUT, its impossible for me to be an expert, any NFL coach/player would laugh themselves silly at anything i had to say

Are there any good/decent/honest inspectors? Of course,lol, but basement waterproofing/foundation work is not their area of expertise and IMO they shoud never dole out 'supposed remedies' to HO`s, they have no experience, never done-the-job. If i read some medical books am i now ready for surgery? lol If they are going to recommend theese supposed-fixes then they outta be there for those HO`s when the bsmt wall leaks again due to a crack in wall/other problem. Be there meaning FIX IT. yup...

I`ve seen this happen ALOT but, not one-single inspector, ever, came back after folks bought a house and raised grade/extending downspout extensions etc etc etc....what they heard from inspector, if inspector returned call at all, was something like "Oh, i`m sorry, call a contractor,SE.. thats what usually works" etc...

i say, bypass the inspector when it comes to bsmt water`g, NOT on everything, THIS subject.
Chtt, are you saying that people should call a hm inspector when they have a basement problem/leak/bowing wall and spend $300 or whatever ya charge... instead of,an expert? Unbiased? even if that were true, what good is being unbiased and not having the knowledge? No disrespect but come on folks.

Give these folks who are buying a house a chance to... define any possible bsmt leak/crack correctly which if found, they can then deduct the cost of work needed off the asking price.


and Rfff, sorry to hear of your problem....really. Let me ask, HOW did you backfill that wall? Machine, by hand? How LONG was the excavated area left opened? Knock on wood(my head) but, we`ve never had 1 wall/part of wall etc collaps,nearly 3 decades. Was any equipment used near that side of the house?