First, sorry this is so long!

We have been living in this house for a little over 2 years with no extremely bad leaks in the basement. We are in Western NY area, and every house we looked at had some sort of water in the basement.
Also, every house we could afford needed work. I don't have any problems with most projects, but this is one I know needs to be handled by a professional.

This house had vinyl sheets in a few random places by the backyard wall, and apparently it was used to hide several large cracks. After a large storm dumped a large amount of water on us, water popped off part of one of the vinyl sheets and began to pour water into the basement.
I'd say it was at about the same rate as a garden hose on full blast.

I pulled the top part of one of the sheets back and discovered additional cracks.
The wall has a slight bow in it, I'd say no more than a 1/2 inch.

I did a bit of testing on a drain used for one of the gutters next to the problem area, and when I divert the rain, we get almost not water through the cracks. I also found the drain to be very loose in the ground, so I'm assuming it rotted/broken and dumping all the roof/gutter water right next to the foundation.
I'm 100% sure I can fix this, and I've already been planning on upgrading the entire gutter system on the house.

My real problem is that we don't have the $10,000-$30,000 to dig and fix the basement wall from the outside.

That being said, would using a water control method be ok until we can save up for a real solution?

We've had one contractor that has a long standing and very good rating with the BBB, come out and describe methods they would do to help relieve the water problem on the wall.
They would use the method of drilling out holes and injecting epoxy (can't remember what type) into the cracks, and cutting in a few places at the base of the wall and cleaning out the seep holes so it can drain into our floor/drain tile.

He inspected our floor/drain tile and said it looked fairly new, but it was now blocked up with all the mud that recently came in, which is easily seen when you take the drain cap off.

He also said they would use carbon-fiber strips to brace the wall.
And to top it off, they give a lifetime, transferable warranty on their work.

The quote for the work is in the average range of the others we've had.

We have spent so much money on this house that we are getting close to where we would never get our money back if we sold it. (we don't want to sell it).

I just want to make sure I'm going with the best semi-short/medium term solution.

Whoever lead you to believe it would cost between 10 and 30k to dig one wall may be misleading you. My guess is, it was the guy who wants to do interior work.

The vinyl sheets you see, were installed as part of a water control system that was previously installed on your home. I am certain that the cracks they are covering are now bigger then they were when the system was installed.

As the result of so many water control systems having been installed in homes with serious foundation problems, such as cracking and bowing of the walls, we are beginning to find many of these homes are now in need of complete wall replacement.

Believe me I know the spiel. Carbon fiber is pound for pound stronger than steel. So is bamboo. I wouldn't want to rely on either to withstand the pressure of the expansive clay. Read the warranty very carefully. Most have so many conditions and exclusions, that in my opinion they are next to worthless. Another consideration is that carbon straps, wall anchors, beams, etc. may make your home difficult to sell.

My suggestion is to excavate the problem wall to the footer. Remove what caused the problem, the clay, and waterproof. Your chasing bad money otherwise, and you may end up losing the opportunity to fix the problem, and go straight to having to rebuild.

Thanks for the info wtrprfr1.

The first estimate we got was by some odd twist of fate the company that put the vinyl sheet on.
He told us that he put it on about 6 months before we looked at the house (about 2 years + 6 months ago). He also said the cracks were there like that when he put it up and that a large tree in the back had fallen into the wall and part of the house that caused it.

He was the one that gave us the quote for $10k-$30k and also wanted to put the vinyl sheet back up.

I think the extra money for digging would be due to the location where they need to dig.
We are surrounded by houses on all sides except the front, with no real access to the backyard where the digging would need to take place.

I was also told by the same contractor that due to the city/town where we live, it would require an engineer to draw plans for installing the steel bars that needed to be submitted to the city for approval.

And we'd also have to pay another company to take soil samples and if they found anything they didn't like we'd be responsible for removing the bad soil and bringing in new.

We do have another contractor coming out tomorrow, so I'll see what they say about digging and fixing it from the outside.

Ugh... this house will be the death of me. =P

Seems to me you've found a couple of contractors who sell by the "scare tactic" method. You should be able to dig and waterproof that wall for 20% or less of the numbers you were given. How much space does anyone need to get a hand shovel and a wheelbarrow through? Anything more than that should not be used.

If you read through some of LicensedWaterproofRR's posts, you'll find a few that illustrate exactly how basement waterproofing should be done. You won't see any motorized equipment being used. They dig by hand, and wheel the excaxvated material away in wheelbarrows, and bring in the gravel backfill the same way. All you need is about four feet clear.

A half-inch of bowing is hardly a problem, if the reason for the bowing is diagnosed and remedied. There should be no need for any steel bars or carbon fiber straps or any other kind of band-aid...yes, that's all they are, and as wtrprfr1 said, they may make the house far more difficult to sell in the future.

All you need to do is dig the one wall down to the footing, repair the cracks, waterproof the wall, and backfill with pea gravel or crushed stone. LicensedWaterproofRR will kill me if I'm wrong, but maybe a cost of $3000?? Or thereabouts? That's a far cry from $10,000 to $30,000.

Can probably get that cost down to $300 if you put some sweat equity in.

Thanks again for all the info.
I would LOVE to fix this by myself and have no fear of sweat equity (if you only knew what I've fixed on this house so far! =P ).

I'm having trouble finding the posts related to "how to do it" on here for either of LicensedWaterproofRR's usernames though.

While I do more research to make sure I won't be in over my head, we've been searching through local contractors that prefer the outside method and are in good standing with the BBB.

I feel a little more educated on it now when I speak to the contractors.

Thanks again for all the info, and if you have any other tips I'd greatly appreciate it!

LicensedWaterproofer begat LicensedWaterproofR begat LicensedWaterproofRR, so you have three names to look under. He's described the method more than once, and so have I, but not so eloquently and completely as he.

(If he'd only remember his danged password, you wouldn't have to look under three names!) =)

Thanks for the usernames!
I got sucked into looking at all the problems people ran into so I decided to share my own.

Basement cracks hide and seek

I had a theory that the drain the gutters tied into was broken, so I tested it with the hose test.
And it duplicates the leak when we had the bad rain.
So I've left a temporary hose in place until we get it fixed.

Couple pennies from afar...

Per your 1st post........if you want to fix/play with the drain fine but it has NOTHING to do with the fact you have cracks in the wall and the wall is bowing in and water/rain that enters through the cracks.So too can insects,radon gas.

Whoever installed the inside CRAP is a incompetent moron.....those vinyl sheets against part(s) of interior wall/cracks does NOTHING other than HIDE cracks,water that enters the cracks and possible mold,efflorescence behind the dumb sheets.ABSOLUTE garbage! These weak minded inside knotheads should be SUED for negligence,incompetence,fraud.

Pics 10,11 Looks like some sort of carbon fiber strips/staples. How does anyone figure these remove-relieve-lessen exterior lateral pressure.

Ummm....did you guys have a home inspection?
Cuz if ya did,somebody should have warned you about the existing cracks,problems and inside sheeting etc.Or if the CITY gave an OK then imo they too neeed to be thrown screaming from a helicopter.And obviously the seller knew,what if anything did they say/claim on disclosure? And where is the bill/paperwork/warranty on this work? Bunch of nitwits.

Ummm, this one contractor who supposedly had a good BBB record (doesn`t mean SQUAT to me) ya say came out and said he`d drill holes in the wall etc, what good will that do? How will epoxy etc RELIEVE ANY exterior pressure? It 'SNOT' gonna happen. Exterior waterproofing SHOULD have been done long time ago,the money spent of the inside CRAP should have gone for exterior work and NOW others are saying/recommending MORE INSIDE CRAP be done?????????????????????????????????????

lolololololololololol

Have said,TRIED to WARN for YEARS about these inside system BOZO`s...yet few in the MEDIA/building depts etc do anything that would really help/warn homeowners.

Mr Frosty, we see some sort of deck but is there also a back porch/addition against this back wall????? IF IF IF there is, it COULD/MIGHT be part of the problem.

As the other gents have already mentioned,exterior waterproofing isn`t/shouldn`t cost anything close-to those figures...nope.

We can`t really see/tell how bad/bowed the wall is.....some walls need to be replaced and others can be repaired/waterproofed.

IF....there is no porch/addition then the deck should be removed and the cost of exterior work will depend on linear footage and depth...so,lets say wall is 30'long and 6'deep then your prolly looking at approx $2,700-$3,000

IF there is a porch(footing)and its part of the problem then its gotta go.

U S Army Corps of Eng....some picturs and thoughts from THEM (in NY state) http://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/...y/photos/photos.html

What do THEY say 'CAUSED' the cracks,'CAUSED' the wall to bow in and caused subsequent leaks/water in basements.That inside CRAP ya see in pictures did NOTHING! Nada,zero....didn`t solve anything,didn`t relieve any exterior pressure.You can put 1,000 carbon straps/staples against inside wall/cracks but they will NOT relieve ANY dang pressure,sheesh

Fairfax County VA.....what do THEY tell ya
Scroll down to....BASEMENT WALL DAMAGE
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/D...tions/marineclay.htm
-Resolution...."Depending on the extent of damage,foundation walls MAY need to be replaced while OTHERS can be repaired.
READ..........THINK.........
"To PREVENT FURTHER DAMAGE,the CLAY MUST be
REMOVED and REPLACED w/sandy or gravelly soils..." and waterproofed/outside.

GOT it? The CLAY...MUST be....removed.
And so too any OTHER possible exterior pressure/weight such as,underground ROOTS,porch footings,concrete slab(s),boulders etc.

Sorry,can`t help myslef...
FROSTY the Snowman....GOT MILK? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4jlaZy-bSQ

Did ya`s blow her a kiss back at the end?

I agree about the outside pipe. I don't think it caused the problems/cracks, but I have to fix it now since it's such a large source of water.

"Whoever installed the inside CRAP is a incompetent moron"
If you really want a good laugh, they offered to come back out and put the vinyl back up only for the cost of a service fee. =P

Oops, sorry about pics 10-11, I meant to add captions to those.
That is actually the only crack we were warned about... I'm assuming because it's the only one they didn't hide.
I should be so lucky to have carbon fiber strips/staples. No, that is masking tape I put on when we moved in because I was scared the crack was getting bigger. (my first basement, I'm from the South =P )

Ummm....did you guys have a home inspection?
We did have a home inspection, and he caught a lot of stuff.
I have been researching what they were required to do for us, and he did everything, but everything to it's bare minimum to be safe..and not sued.

The owners passed away, and this was an estate sale. My wife checked into this, and apparently in NY, if you die, it's ok for your family to cover up things and not disclose it.

A few other cover-ups that I've corrected:
* Wall plugs and lights connected/installed with lamp cords.
* Hole in attic wall where tree fell through and was pushed back in place and covered with tar paper.
* Rotten floors that covered up by new carpet in the bathrooms.

So, finding giant cracks behind paper thin vinyl doesn't shock me, but it does give a good sick feeling in my stomach.

Ummm, this one contractor who supposedly had a good BBB record (doesn`t mean SQUAT to me)
Now that you mention it, the first company that installed the cover-up has a good rating. =\

Mr Frosty, we see some sort of deck but is there also a back porch/addition against this back wall????? IF IF IF there is, it COULD/MIGHT be part of the problem.

Yep, we do have a small poured slab that was converted to a "Florida Room". And I'm am 100% sure it can't be helping the basement. I took a picture of it but it looks like I forgot to add it. We have a rabbit living under there, so I KNOW there is a hole for water to get into. There are no leaks in the basement directly under the slab, but I'm guessing it could just be diverting the water to another spot.

We were planning on removing the floor and rebuilding it.. but not until the point I can stop finding hidden things that have to be fixed first. =P

We had another contractor take a look last night, and he's the first one to say we HAD to fix those giant cracks by digging on the outside and then reinforcing on the inside along with the crack repairs.

For the area we live in, he said doing this probably still wouldn't keep all the water out. And while looking at our drain tile he pointed out that it needed to be repaired/replaced because the water that comes in, stands on top of it, and runs like a river down the wall instead of going into the tile.

Waiting on his estimate to come in.

Ugghhhh! Can someone just please shoot me now?

Just got our latest estimate at over $12,000.

At least he wanted to fix it from the outside. =P

Including what? Just waterproofing? Or rebuilding part of the wall? Waterproofing only one wall, or th ewhole house? The number without any information doesn't mean anything.

It was to dig outside and fix the "hidden" crack behind the vinyl. Reinforcing the walls on the inside which so far, everyone agrees needs to be done. But none of them agree on how much or where it needs to be reinforced other than the extremely obvious giant cracks/bowing.

But that is only a small portion of the basement wall. And I have a strange feeling stopping the water at that location will make the large visible crack (the one I put tape on to see if it was moving =P ) start to leak.

I've also had a lot of mixed opinions on my drain tiles. So far I've had:
* We just need to clean the pipe out
* We need to cut a ridge along the wall to let water in.
* It needs to be completely removed and a new one put in (this is included in the above price).

That price also includes a few things that I stated "I" was going to fix.
So I'm not sure why they were included, but I was pretty frustrated when I got the info. =P

If the walls are fixed correctly on the outside, what is the best thing to use for the cracks on the inside to repair them? I've had 3 different ways quoted to me: NP1, Epoxy and I forget the last one.. I have it written down at work.

My wife has veto'd me digging it all myself, but if we keep getting the run-around I'm just going to do it. I never really listen to her anyway! =P

I am extremely tempted to pull all the vinyl off the walls to see exactly what I'm dealing with...but I'm also afraid I'll create more problems if I do.

Why be afraid? All the vinyl does is hide problems that the installer of the vinyl KNEW were there. Maybe you'll find more cracks, maybe you won't.

If you waterproof corrctly on the outside, I think all that's necessary to repair the cracks on the inside is hydraulic cement. The inside repair is then purely cosmetic. Presumably, in the process of excavating and repairing the outside, the cause of the pressure that created the cracks and the bowing will be discovered and removed. From your pictures, it almost looks to me like the cracks may have happened all at once, suggesting a force such as a piece of heavy equipment running too close to the wall, especially soon after construction. But, making diagnoses from photographs is dangerous and the result should be taken with several grains of salt.

My guess is that once you take care of the outside of the walls correctly, it won't matter what you do with the inside drain tiles.

I don't know if they couldn't have gotten any heavy equipment to the backyard.
But, there is that tree that people told us fell into the house. The stump is about 2 1/2 to 3 feet around, and the roots base above the ground is about 7 feet.
I'd be willing to bet I will at least find some roots by the house since it's not that far away.

I'm going to read through everything here I can find before I jump in.

Thanks for again for all the tips, answers and suggestions!

Frosty, I think it is time for you to bring in a structural engineer. While there is plenty of good general advice to be found on this forum, it is just that, general advice. Sight unseen, all any of us can offer is educated guesses. Bring in a professional, who as the saying goes, "doesn't have a dime in it."

Thanks wtrprfr1, I am planning on getting a professional to make the correct repairs to the wall itself for the structural repairs that need to be done.

I was just reading one of your posts and got some more info I needed!

I am working up a list of all my questions for the project and trying to answer them first by reading through as much of the site as I can.

Once I get that, I'm going to bug you all one more time, or at least I hope just one more time. =P

My wife would still prefer we get a legitimate contractor to do the work for us using the "correct" fix/method. But I think I'm running out of people to call!

Also, I forgot to respond to LicensedWaterproofRR about that song.
I've heard that song almost every day in one way or another for the past 20 years. =P
I treat it like my wife and tune it out! (If she reads this, she'll only agree!)

This is kind of scary..the picture with the following comment may be my house.. if it's not, I am sure it's in my neighborhood..

"Unconnected downspout and drainage toward house lead to hydrostatic pressure on basement wall."
http://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/...y/photos/photos.html


Now my questions!

First, Winter and Rain...
I read that I should dig down to the full depth in sections, but can I just do the bad part first, and then go back and fix the rest after winter? I'm just not sure I'll have enough time to fix it all this year by myself.
What happens if it rains (and I'm sure it will) while I'm digging?.. Are there any precautions I should take? How would I do a partial drain until I can get to the rest. Would it be ok to just cap it and then add to it as I go back further?

Speaking of the drain...
I'm not sure I can put in a drain at the base of the wall that I could bring back up to "daylight"?
Would it need an outdoor sump pump? I know I have the (now broken) drain pipe to our city storm water drainage system, would it be safe to tie into that when I fix the problem there? It seems like the easiest solution, if it is actually low enough that is.

This may be silly.. but on the Schedule 40 PVC pipe for the drain, are the holes drilled in it all around or just one side and placed on bottom/top?

Once I've dug down, What should I clean the poured slab walls with before I apply the hydraulic cement?

And lastly:
Is it safe to put the deck back in when I'm done?
It's not tied into the foundation and only sitting on the ground using 6 to 8 peer blocks to level it.

Frosty, You should have a structural engineer evaluate and propose a course of action.

Oh I agree about the structural engineer.

That wall with the extra large crack and bowing is what prompted me to get started looking for someone to fix it.

The water hasn't been that much of a problem until the outside storm drain broke and revealed the cover-up job(s).

I'd never start digging without making sure it wouldn't cause the whole thing to fall apart.

My main goal, aside from reinforcing the wall, is to make sure I make the right choice in how it eventually gets waterproofed, and avoid being scammed into something I don't need.

Thanks again for all of your help! =)