Eric, NYBUILDER makes an excellant point, expect to put a lot of time into this. If you go at it half-hearted you will spend countless more money than if you hired a GC.

Woodchuck - sorry to hear you make peanuts, where
I live GC's are marking materials amd sub-labor at a minimum of 30%!! Give me a break 30%, why do you think there are some many people now willing to do this? When I was quoted by several GC;s at $275-300 a sq ft I looked into other options.

Also get a good lawyer that knows how to write contracts properly. Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by ERIC MCKNIGHT:
Hi to all on the group....My wife and I are acting as general contractor in building our 3400sq ft house. We plan on using a construction manager but we will be greatly involved in papar/jobsite stuff also. I am wondering what would I expect to pay for a construction manager?
thanks,
Eric

I am a commercial/industrial construction manager & I agree with NYDM. Paraphrasing his answer with my most current info: "Typically a construction manager acts as an owners' representative and works for the best interests of the owner as a liason between the architect & general contractor." A construction manager can also prequalify all subcontractors & suppliers, analyze all bids with regard to completeness of scope, & supervise the entire construction project. According to the 2006 version of RS Means Building Construction & Cost Data, for a $1,000,000 project, a construction manager usually get 4.5% to 7.5% of the total project costs; for a $5,000,000 project, a construction manager usually get 2.5% to 5% of the total project costs.

quote:

manager

If you have never been your own GC, then you should hire a construction manager. A 3400 sq. ft. house is a huge investment and will need to be overseen 8 hours a day. Either you or your wife must be there all day. You will also need to go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy a book on how to be your own GC and also buy a DIY book on each part of the building process from the foundation to the roof. Get a quote from at least 3 subcontractors for each part of the building process - not to get the lowest price but to weed out the idiots who think they know their trade and the cocky know-it-alls who want to overcharge you. Most subs will want to get their work done and get out. Unless you've done this before, you'll need someone (or alot of reference books) to go to for advice at each step of the process - you'll need to know if your subs are screwing up or not. Interview at least 3 possible construction managers and ask them they will charge. Your local small town lumber store (not the big box store guys) can give you lots of names. As a female home builder, I have put up with lots of verbal abuse from subs but still love the building process - you can do it!

I'm a little late in the discussion, but many interesting comments. Thus far, everyone has some valid points. The initial question, however, doesn't really make a lot of sense. Why would you want to be your own general contractor and then hire out a construction manager? That's what a GC is all about. What's your real motivation to do so? Better end product overseeing it yourself? Or are you trying to save big bucks (so you think)? Or both? Some people outside the trade have successfully been their own GC's, but they are definately in the minority. I think builders take offense when a "non-builder" or a novice thinks he or she can do as good or a better job and also save a lot of money--and rightly so. As alluded to in some of the comments, the time factor alone will kill you. You can ask yourself a few quick, easy questions and make a decision whether you should even proceed to move forward. First, do you have the flexibility to act and make decisions at a moment's notice (not to mention the expertise) regarding one of several areas...whether it be concerning plumbing, framing, foundation, concrete, heating, roofing, windows, doors, and the list goes on and on... How's your current job? Can you leave at any time to go visit the jobsite? Remember, this will be several months from beginning to end... For 99% of "non-trade" people this just isn't possible. A friend of mine (with construction experience) tried to GC his own new home last year. He didn't get very far--two months into it and he hadn't even broken ground. The time factor alone was too much pressure on his family and real job. Bottom line advice to you: If you don't have the expertise to GC without a construction mgr, then hire a builder and let him handle it. Do your own job that you are probably good at and getting paid well for it. Let builders do their jobs. If you are concerned about quality, work closely with your builder. If you are looking for more money, work OT in your current job.

Just wanted to make a few more comments.... I hope you understand all building codes in your area... YOU and you alone are responsible for the final outcome. If something is done iscorrectly maybe you can sue your own subs...maybe you could represent yourself in court as well (you would probably save a few bucks) and I'm sure there are countless books in the library regarding the law. In all of your spare time, I'm sure you could be an expert regarding our legal system in no time. Obviously, I'm being facetious, but I think you get the point ( or at least I hope so). It's like the amateur golfer who goes out and shoots 72 one day... pretty soon he's giving advice and lessons to fellow members when he really doesn't understand the mechanics of the golf swing.

Eric, as you have seen, this can be a "touchy" subject. my husband and i have our own business, he has been building for 10+ years, but has been managing for projects just like yours for the last year. with your knowledge, you may know more than the average homeowner,but it will still be a long and difficult process. find a "manager" that you trust ...use the subs that he/she recommends.....RESPECT the subs as your equal....Always pay them on time!...and you'll do just fine.My husband leads the show up to drywall, then the homeowner takes the lead. you can save a substanial amount, but you will pay in your time. What a contractor can do "with their eyes closed" will take you a much longer time because you have to learn as you go. also you will have to be patient with the subcontractors because they will have to respond to their long term clients/contractors before they can attend to your one-time job. they need their long term clients to be happy, it's just the nature of the field. lorrie

This is the first time I have followed one of these discussions. Please consider this an opinion of an interested but impartial bystander. Boy..some of you people sure get nasty. Mr. McKnight asked an intelligent and honest question. Can't you all just deal in facts. All the prejudices and animosity from a few of you is kinda scary. We all have valid opinions, don't color them with personal bias. Deliver the facts with objectivity. That's probably the only thing that Mr. McKnight will consider anyway. Good luck to you all.

As usual, I'm joining the party a little late, but just in case anyone is still following this thread, I'd like to add my thoughts.

Last year, I was the superintendent on what should have been a fairly straightforward project. It was a detached 3 car garage with living space above. The budget was around 200K. The job had been structured as a simple cost-plus 10% with the HO having access to all job related documents. As you can see... even if the job had gone perfectly, we weren't looking to make much profit. I think my boss agreed to it just to give me a job to run.

Very early into the project, the HO started asking for further estimates from subs that my company was unfamiliar with. In every case, price was the only consideration the HO looked at. So I ended up with several low-ball subs (drywall, electric, siding, stucco, framing, HVAC, tile, hardwood, carpet, security) that I had never worked with before and who had no loyalty to our company. We typically work with a core group of subs, most of whom we have a long history with and all of whom know how we want things done.

The HO then decided that he wanted to pay most of these subs directly and even talked the electrical sub into allowing him to purchase the fixtures directly AND with the contractor discount.

In every case, the HO's material and fixture choices were again focused merely on cost and often against specific recommendations by me or the subs.

Why my boss and some of the subs agreed to some of the demands of this HO is beyond me, but is also somewhat beside the point of the story. All of this could have been still been okay, if not for some other issues that arose (as they always do) during the project.

Many of the HO's own finished material choices were deemed unacceptable by him once they were being installed. In most cases (after much wrangling and more competitive estimates) he went with the original materials suggested by the pros.

One of the biggest headaches for me personally during this project was that I had no power over most of the subs. The subs I had history with (painting, roofing, plumbing, excavation, foundation, concrete, cabinets, etc) were responsive and professional when these issues arose. Most of the others simply couldn't be bothered. They had completed the work they had been contracted to perform (at cut-rate prices), and I couldn't hold money or anything to motivate them to respond, as the HO was paying them directly.

Essentially, he hired a GC to run his project and then systematically removed much of our control while maintaining our responsibility. Somehow, we managed to not lose money on the job... but just barely.

And as a result of this job, each of the subs the HO brought in (many of whom had worked for him previously) all privately told me that they would never work for him again. Being that he has a rather large addition planned in the next few years, it stands to reason that he'll have a difficult time finding people to do the work for the price he expects.

Had he left well enough alone and allowed all of us to do our jobs, we would have finished on time and on (if not below) budget, instead of the other way around. And he would have built a positive relationship with some of the premier contractors in the area.

My recommendation to anyone considering acting as your own GC is this: Hire a competent GC and quickly establish a cooperative relationship with him/her. Plan to speak with the job site superintendent daily, and have a formal site walk-through at least once a week. Doing this will afford you the opportunity to highlight any questions or concerns as they arise and discuss options then and there. Among many other things, the GC's job is about customer service. Any reputable contractor is going to listen and respond to your concerns, and will strive to give you the end result of your dreams.

Proper planning, good communication and mutual respect are the keys to a successful project. It's not about power.

This is one of the reasons why I refuse to do a cost plus job. Rarely do they turn out well for any involved. Great post.

What is the matter with you so called professionals? This person wanted advice NOT abject criticisim. If I ask for advice is this the way I would be treated? Are you afraid that you will miss out on a ton of money if a few people contract their own houses? Sure it takes time and knowledge, but were YOU (building contractors) born with that "special gift" to be able to be a contractor---NO---you worked hard, made mistakes and learned your trade. We ALL make mistakes and I bet not one of you have had a construction project that went 100 per cent right. So how about being nice and treating others the way you would like to be treated!

I won't claim to speak for anyone other than myself, southerngal. But you pretty much made my point for me. Professionals have put in the time, effort and made the mistakes to put them in a position to help assure that a job runs smoothly. I for one wasn't criticizing the poster of this thread. I would consider my response as "fair warning" to both clients and contractors alike as to what can happen.

I don't claim to know how to rebuild an engine, or set a broken leg. I'll happily go to the professionals for that service. Why should building a home (most people's largest single investment) be any different?

I wouldn't even try to do it by myself. I don't have to time to earn a living and spend 10 to 12 hours a day overseeing every aspect of my project.

Contracting is a service. A valuable service, not a bunch of ragamuffin charlatans out to wring dollars out of an unsuspecting public.

As to your "tons of money" comment... contractor's make money based on how well they plan, manage and execute a project. The amount of time, manpower and resources that go into building a single house would likely boggle your mind. In the long run, it's not nearly as much money as you might think.

CowboyGP--You come across as a nice, very intelligent and level headed guy. The "tons of money" was a facetious remark (not intended to be TOTALLY serious). I live 30 minutes north of New Orleans and just about everyone in the building industry is doing well. Some contractors I have met act as though no one BUT A CONTRACTOR is smart enough to build a house (they forget in the beginning they had to start at square one). I am planning on contracting my new home and have run into a few "holier than thou" contractors. My Dad was a builder for many years, built 2 homes and was a bulding inspector for Plaquemines Parish for 21 years. We also have many friends that are tradesmen so I think I will do fairly well in my endeavor. Thanks

I have a question for you southerngal. Why isn't your dad acting as GC for your home? He has the experience and knowledge that comes with years of working in the trade to make good decisions and to fix problems before they start. I work in the trades and I can tell you that there is NO WAY I would GC my own home. No contractors aren't born with the knowledge and the contractors here aren't saying that they are smarter than homeowners. They are more experienced and more educated in their field. One does not wake up one morning and decide to be a contractor and voila they are. It takes many years to gain the experience and knowledge. I am a painting/staining contractor. I do one part of huge jobs. I have worked on sites with GC and I have worked on sites with homeowners doing the contracting. There is a HUGE difference in the final product. Homeowners mean well when they get involved, but they must understand that they don't have the same skill set that the contractors and subs have. I also have lost money when dealing with homeowners acting as their own GC. I avoid that situation like the plague. Plenty of subs don't want to be in a situation where there is no professional GC involved. This means that the pool of subs who are willing to work on your project is smaller and may not include some of the best subs in your area. Work must be done in a specific order to ensure that no one is doing double work which causes delay and extra cost. Homeowners don't always get that order right. So the subs are having to do extra work or double work which messes with their entire schedule. The last time I worked with a homeowner acting as their own GC it screwed up my schedule for 6 weeks. I had to juggle other jobs and work hellish hours to make up for it.

A good contractor isn't going to pull the holier than though routine. (Just like a good doctor doesn't think MD stands for modern deity.) I bet your dad didn't do that.

I don't know how facetious your money remark was. Every homeowner who has responded has said the same thing. Contractors don't make tons of money - neither do the subs. Many people treat us very poorly with little or no respect. Have you ever asked to use the bathroom and been told to go to 7eleven down the street? Or asked for some water on a blazing hot day when you are sanding and staining a deck just to be told to drink out of the hose? (some homeowners are great - those are my repeat customers as I won't work for the jerks who do things like the above) So keep in mind that the respondents to this thread who have worked hard to learn their trades and skills, who are routinely treated poorly, paid poorly with no benefits are now being told they aren't necessary but will in the end have to fix all the problems. Yeah, they are bitter - wouldn't you be?

g8rgirl99, My Dad is 79 and believe me he will be here every day whether I need him or not. I have a friend (my roofer) that is going to help with the order in which I line up my subs and 3 other guys I know have given me names of the subs that they have used and they recomend. A little back-ground on me--I used to work as a process tech in a large refinery. I had to supervise crews in my area of the plant all the time, I also ran a petroleum dock(gasoline/diesel). The contractors loved me because I treated them great (do unto others!!!)--the homemade cookies and brownies I made were also appreciated! I live in a mobile home that was very beat up from Katrina (building a house has always been the plan but the hurricane sped the time frame up). I would love to hire a contractor but after that **** hurricane prices here have gone crazy not to mention home owners insurance increasing from $667 a year to $3200. I can only afford just so much. I would rather tough it out and use what ever I save by not using a contractor on my new home. Besides it will be a new learning experience, hopefully a good one. The money remark was half hearted sarcastic. I know 2 contractor personally (one thinks he is "Saint Larry") and YES they make a lot of money or they would not be doing it for a living! Also if I worked in a profession where I was treated as poorly as you say I would find a new source of employment. No one needs to work at a job where they are miserable!!! Go to job service and find a new job. The way you describe it maybe Wal-Mart would be a better chioce of employment---steady income, out of the weather, bathroom facilities and benifits. I'm sorry, but, you sound as if you are describing yourself (bitter?)--if so either do something else or choose your clients wisely. Thanks for your coments

I am not bitter. I choose to work in this profession. I have college degrees and could work in the business world of offices in Manhattan. I enjoy making people's homes beautiful. I was giving you personal experiences so that you could understand why so many contractors are a bit jaded. As I said in my post - clients who don't treat us well are off the client list. Most of my clients are amazing people. I know plenty of contractors who aren't rich. I'm glad that you treat people well, but know that not everyone does. And I do hope your roofer friend is able to help you with all the timing and schematics that will be necessary in your home build.

Oh - and thank you so much for that lovely slap in the face about Wal-Mart. If I choose to I could certainly work at a little higher end job. But this is a perfect example of the bias that people hold for tradespeople. You assume that I am not educated enough to work somewhere else. The g8r in my screen name refers to the fact that I graduated with high honors for the University of Florida. (Florida born and breed so I know hurricanes and insurance. Take it up double and triple and that is my family's rates!) I hold three degrees - BA, JD, MA. As I said I choose to do this work. I know a lot of tradespeople who hold degrees so don't think that if we don't work with our hands we have to work at Wal-Mart.

I wish you much success and luck in your endeavor.

My experience after forty-plus years in architecture tells me that a homeowner who chooses to build his or her own home will save 10% at best, and will definitely take more time to build it. That extra time often eats up the 10% or more, and therefore there are not even any savings. And the quality is likely to be somewhat less.

A good general contractor can save far more money than what his profit is, and can produce work of higher quality, just as a good architect can save many times his or her fee, and also produce work of a higher quality. An ideal job has a working team of dedicated Owner, experienced General Contractor, and a competent Architect. You can't beat that unless you are very, very lucky, and most who try to do it themselves are not so lucky.

Hi Richard, Thanks for your coments, I'll keep them in mind during my project. Every person that attemps to build a new home for the first time needs to have all their ducks in a row and I believe I have. Even if I save 10% it will be worth it (maybe pay for appiances/fxtures). As I've said before it will be a new learning experience (good and/or bad).

What you may not understand about the ducks is that your rows will be longer and less predictable than a general contractor's. What I mean by that is this: Imagine you are, say, a heating and plumbing subcontractor, and you come home from work to find a bunch of phone messages on your desk, a few from repeat-customer general contractors, and one from a lovely but completely unknown Southern Girl. Guess whose calls get returned first, and guess who gets priority on the subcontractor's schedule...the general contractors who represent repeat work and good payment records, or the lovely Southern Girl, who represents a one-time shot and an unknown payment record?

That's why self-contracted jobs almost always take much more time to accomplish, and the inevitable problems caused by an inexperienced coordinator usually eat up any savings quite quickly, and result in a job that takes considerably longer to build and produces a result of less than the best quality. often with some built-in problems that can't be solved, but just must be lived with.

The lesser quality and built-in problems also result in reduced resale value.

I've been designing stuff for well over forty years, and that's what I consistently see, and that's not even considering the real horror stories. Those can easily double a budget, and still produce substandard work. Be warned.

So you think because I sign in as Southern Gal I'm incapable of being a contractor? Well as I said before, I was a refinery process technician for years. British Petroleum had only 10 women (and almost 500 men) process technicians in the whole refinery. I don't think building a house is any bigger a challenge than running a petroleum dock, operating a 40 ton crane, managing six 95 foot in diameter butane/propane spheres, making pipe line switches (36 in. valves using a air wrench) and managing a maintenance crew on a daily basis, just to mention a few tasks I did for my job. What makes you think that a woman can't handle a building project? I am retired, I live on site and I know quality work when I see it. My Dad built homes all of his life and was a building inspector in Plaquemine Parish for 20 years---I'll get plenty of guidance from him. Besides that-every "person" that is a contractor now had to start somewhere! AND contractors can and do have schedule problems now and again, don't they? By the way this is my retirement home, I'm not building this house to be sold. P.S. For every "Horror" story I'm sure there are 100 well built homes AND within budget. Thanks

I referred to you as Southern Girl because that's the name you use, and for no other reason. I wish you luck, but in my long experience, I have never seen a self-contracted project turn out as well, or be completed nearly as quickly, as those where a good general contractor was used, and I don't remember anyone actually saving any money either. Most, after the fact, wish they had done it the other way, if only to have escaped the headaches. Yes, general contractors have occasional scheduling problems, but they are rare, because they have clout. And the good ones have far fewer than the bad ones, probably because they pay their subs on time and the bad ones don't. I hope you are the exception, but in general terms, I stan