We're having tile installed in my brother in law's house in another state. (He is handicapped). There was a very old existing sheet linoleum floor over a concrete slab. When the flooring store owner bid the job the linoleum was to be removed. After we left the tile guy that showed up told my brother in law that it could not be removed and tiled over it. Some of the linoleum was peeling but supposedly most of it was "welded" to the concrete. Was this a mistake? The flooring job is 90% done, should I insist it be torn out and redone? I'm sure they'll tell me that they do this all the time.
The vinyl MUST be removed prior to installing tile over slab. You cannot install tile over vinyl. The floor will eventually fail. You may have a rough time removing the vinyl, but it is doable. Whomever installed the vinyl put too much glue underneath. A good scraper underneath the vinyl and some effort is all that is needed.
"WELDED" to the concrete? I'd like to see that. I agree with Matt. There ARE times when it'll last, but those times are few and far between, and in order to know for sure whether it;ll last or not, you practically have to tear it up, anyway. here's a clip from my website, copied and pasted:
This is a subject that's very hotly debated within the industry. It seems every manufacturer has a thinset that they say can be used over resilient flooring (sheet vinyl) or vinyl tile. The problem with that is twofold. With all the different types of vinyl flooring out now, it's tough to know which ones can, and which ones can't be tiled over. Cushioned vinyl's are out. They can compress, causing voids under the tile, ultimately causing failure. Also, not all sheet vinyl is glued solid to the floor. A lot of times, vinyl installers will only glue the edges and spot glue in the center, and if you thinset the tile to it, it won't stay very long. In my opinion, vinyl tiles are out, as well, due to the fact that the thinset bond is only as good as the bond of the surface under it, and I've seen vinyl tiles ( especially peel and stick) let go way too easily. The same is also true for sheet vinyl. The second problem with tiling over vinyl is the underlayments used for vinyl installation. Normally, in woodframe construction, there are one of several underlayments used-- luan, 1/4" particle board, 1/4" plywood, and sometimes even MDF (medium density fiberboard). ANY of those in a tile subfloor is a guaranteed failure. 1/4" plywood has a nasty habit of delaminating (the layers come apart). Luan has the same problem, plus it can compress to 1/2 its original thickness from normal residential foot traffic (I've seen this happen). Particle board (as well as MDF), just from humidity, can expand enough to pop tile loose. Any of those can cause failure, and unless you pull the vinyl, you don't know for sure whether the vinyl installer just went over the existing subfloor, or added one of the underlayments mentioned. All in all, it's an extremely risky installation, and my question is why, when spending the money it costs for a tile installation, would you want to gamble on it?
THe thing that gets me, especially with the vinyl over concrete, is it's so easy to pull up-- even "welded". If you go to any tool rental place, they'll have what's called a power vinyl stripper, with which the most work you'll do is putting it in and taking it out of your vehicle.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right."
It's too easy to remove the vinyl. To not do it is just cutting a corner that will, in the end, bite you in the rear end. If you're going to make an investment with a tile installation, why not prep it right and do the job right the first time.
I only a DIY'er but I done my share of personal tile jobs. I was days before an appraisal and wanted to upgrade the bathroom flooring from carpet to tile. To my surprise there was a ugly vinyl flooring attached to concrete below. The floor was well attached and I was running out of time so I installed it over the top. It looked great for the appraisal but within a week the grout lines kept breaking and after three weeks and two grout repairs I gave. I started pulling up a tile when I discovered that after three weeks the thinkset was still wet below! I had to pull the toilet and tear everything out. After getting baseboards and all the tile removed I then started on the nasty removal of the vinyl. I'm so glad I did. I learned that the concrete was previously leveled with something that was flaking away and that the floor was cracked. The bottom line is that you never know what is under that flooring unless you remove it. I repaired the floor and reinstalled the tiles. I can honestly say I'm greatful it was only a small bath! Please note this was in a small bath off a bedroom that was not frequently used. I have a daughter that is handicaped and you need a very sturdy floor. MAKE THEM REMOVE THE VINYL. Besides, that is what you paid for!
Posts: 1 | Location: MN | Registered: 20 March 2008
