If you thought you were in the right about Fire Sprinkler Requirement (Should NOT apply) would you just roll over and pay it or would you try to fight it? I'm amazed that even thought I have state code officials saying that they agree that officials are overstepping their authority it's not worth fighting for.
I have a hard time letting go of $12K for no particular reason.
Jay in Minn. - ever been thru this or something similar?

It's not hard to find a overzealous code official. Most of them are fine and do a great job but every now and again you run into one that need to prove their existance. Why don't you share a little background on this, is this the same residential house that you had the zoning issues with? Did they explain why a sprinkler system was necessary? What code does your state follow?
If the state officials say you are right then what I would do is to get an architect involved. Have him/her review your house plans and then have them seal it with the state stamp (without the fire system if the architect agrees that it doesn't need to be there) and submit it for permit. What you are doing here is putting the code official on the defensive. If he denies you the permit he knows that he is going to have to explain to the architect why is was rejected, knowing full well that he architect is well versed in building codes. He knows that he is going to have to reference specific sections of the code to explain his actions. Of course such sections does not exist because he is requiring you to do something that is not in the code. He will be hesitant to put something is writing requiring you to do something that isn't in the code. Knowing all this, he may drop the fire sprinkler requirement.
On a side note here, a code official cannot by law, require you to do something outside the code that is enforced in that specific area. In your case he is requiring fire sprinklers that is not required through the code. Hope this helps

Jay - I greatly appreciate your reply.

I don't know if it's just me but my experience is that I have been unable to find an Architect that actually does know about these issues. I think thats because most projects an architect would work on don't start out as small as mine so they are unfamliar with so called "50% renovations clauses" that may be hiding deep down in zoning.

I actually hired one who is literally across the street from city hall. He got the same info that I had received and suggested I should just shrink my plan to get under 50% clause. I tried to come up with best way to do that and realized that I would be doing next to nothing plus paying my engineer again to review a new smaller plan. So instead I got an appraisal done to boost the starting value. Then I deleted both upstairs baths AND told BO I was going to use my existing kitchen "as is".
I've been playing this rediculous game for 7 months now.
The BO could have taken a different stance with me and just tried to help me rather than just outrite refuse to answer even basic questions, not respond to emails or phone calls etc etc.
I didn't go in there with an attitude. I got attitude when the Fire Cheif told me on the phone "I will not be intimidated by you" and refused to answer my VERY SPECIFIC questions.
This was way before I had any knowledge of the nationwide push by them to mandate sprinklers for all NO MATTER what the real cost may be to a homeowner. 5 minutes online exposes this subject which is just like another long time ongoing national debate. There is NO middle ground. You are either completely PRO-Sprinkler or NOT. They wouldn't care if it added $50K per house.
I have recieved ONE reply on my many requests for stats on number of them with sprinklers in their own house & show me a receipt for a system that was 1-2% of the total cost of a home and please don't leave the water supply out of the equation.
The problem is that they CAN in fact demand something NOT in the code simply because they know darn well that Joe average doesn't have the time or money to fight it so they just pay for the system right or wrong.
Again - just to be clear. I tried in good faith
to simply ask "could you please show me the law, code, ordinance - whatever it is" and I was told "I will not be intimidated by you"
and "I'm still going to make you sprinkler- I don't care that you jumped under the 50% hoop"
"your not going to pass a framing inspection from me w/o sprinklers"
I'll let you know how it plays out. Thanks.

Another intresting tidbit - I talked to the local Uponor Rep about their "Aquasafe" system and weather any had been allowed in WA state.
(Main diference is that Uponor system uses same drinking water meter)
He told me that even a giant company like Wirsbo/Uponor won't bother to fight my particular AHJ even though they can install it in many other municipalities in WA state. Main problem is Water Purveyor thinks they'll be sued if they shut off water for non-payment.
Obviously that would make the house ileagal to ocupy according to building code.
What a cluster............

I understand the fire chiefs request for the sprinkler system. Most people in the community have no understanding of the conditions that we face as firefighters. The new techniques of lightweight construction have created a serious hazard for fighting structure fires. structures that are extremely sound under normal conditions create unforseen hazards under fire conditions. The fire chief was acting to protect his people and give them the best chance to save your structure if it ever catches fire. Lightweight trusses and I beams for floors and roofs have been tested and can fail in as little as 15 min under fire conditions. A fire department in Ohio almost lost 3 firefighters in a house that was only 4 years old, and the time between the 911 call and roof colapse was less than 20 minutes. I will not disagree with you about the cost and forcing people to change the projects, but I wanted to point out the reason behind the fire chiefs demands. I agree it is a high cost and I would not want to pay for it unless I needed to. When I build a new house in the future I do intend to install a residential sprinkler system even though it will add to the cost. I would check with your insurance agent, it may have some cost benefits with installing the sprinkler system

Sorry about all the trouble and please do let us know how this plays out. I do have a question though, you mentioned that you talked to the fire chief, is he the one making you do the sprinkler system? Your post makes it sound like the fire chief is doing the framing inspection.

Jay - Very good question. One that I'd like to know the answer to but since they won't asnwer my questions........
Fire guy (marshall)made it sound to me like at some point my plans will get onto his desk and then he will decide what he will make me do. BO has made it sound like its his decision. Fire CHEIF told me that BO shouldn't have said that because its fire depts decision. Round & Round....

fireman bsa - You are argueing that somehow weyerhauser slipped their trusses by the code officials w/o proper thought to fire safety. (maybe they did) What is the difference of NFPA or whomever trying to get their stuff mandated by same Code Council w/o proper thought to actual cost?

You'll get no arguement from me that the entire
thing stinks and common sense has gone out the window.

Since you brought up the lightweight trusses - I would think they would be even more inclined to pull the CO's on those two houses that have twice as many TJI joists as mine will have.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. I respect your views and your willingness to talk honestly about the issues.

I'm an 8 year fire sprink installer and bottom line is when it comes to the Fire dept. they have last say. They are also referred to as the "AHJ" (authority having jurisdiction). They don't go strictly by the NFPA. They will follow the guidelines set forth by the NFPA but they have the right to extend coverage or make changes to the system before they will sign off for rough-in, and or for the final. (C.O.)

Hi groudle - thanks for reply. This seems to support my notion that fire can basically just demand anything. So the thing I don't get is why wouldn't ANY permit taken out for ANYTHING trigger fire sprinklers? They are just allowed to grab $12K out of my pocket and don't have to base or justify their decision on anything. This is just out of control govnmt. BS. If they really cared about "SAFETY" they would have to either fix the water main or require everyone to sprinkler their homes retroactivly.

In my town the fire dept only deals with public buildings, not private residents. Altho fireman might be right about the new lightweigh construction. The new wood I-beams, which is basicly plywood in the middle and a 2X4 on the top and bottom, will burn in about 7 minutes. That causes many problems for the firefighter. There are many more things we have to think about before fighting one and going in.

Without commenting on the relative merits, or demerits, of residential fire sprinklers, but speaking as a Remodeling Contractor, it never ceases to amaze me, or to anger me, how often the so-called big fish in the small ponds like to bully their own private agendas over on the smaller fish, without regard to the cost, since, after all it isn't their money. The laws and codes are supposed to be equally and impartially implemented and enforced by those in positions of authority, for the benefit of all, without private gain, or agenda, at least in theory.

I don't know how broad your shoulders are, or how thick your hide may be, or how deep your pockets are, none of which are of any concern to me, but if you have the stomach for it, perhaps the court of public opinion is the best way to get a fair and impartial ruling on your case. The media just love to get their hooks into a story like yours, and if it were my case, I, personally, would not be adverse to publically involving the Attorney General of your state in this issue, since he/she is a bigger fish than is the one giving you the grief. That will force the Middle fish into the spotlight, to explain and justify, in the public forum, why he is doing what he is doing. Most bullies don't like being exposed as to what they really are.

This is a most interesting story, and I hope you will keep it alive, for all of our benefits, in this forum.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: W. J. Parker,

I’m a new poster to the forum, mainly inspired by your question. I’m a recently retired 30 year fire service professional, 4-years as Fire Marshal, 12-years as Fire Chief. While I don’t know much of the specifics of your case or state (Washington?), my experience is that all states have enabling legislation to establish the minimum codes and a mechanism for local amendments. The authority to enforce does not usually exist solely at the local level. It is usually statutorily derived from the authority of a state department – in the fire department’s case, the State Fire Marshal. Each state authority will have an advisory committee whose purpose is to resolve conflicts between the code, code officials, and practitioners (builders). All of this information is available at the Washington State Fire Marshal’s web page – the codes, the local amendments that have been authorized, and the names and contact information of the advisory board.

At the local level, just as in any government, the AHJ is responsible for showing the petitioner (you) the specific code being enforced. In my state (and likely in yours) there are local appeal mechanisms for disputes in interpretation – honest disputes, not just denial of the plain language. These go by various names, usually Board of Adjustment or Codes Enforcement Board. You should have the right to make an appeal if, upon examining the relevant code, you believe the Building Official or Fire Chief are misinterpreting it. Ours has a $75 filing fee that is returned if the petitioner prevails.

I have had the experience of having an overzealous enforcer on my staff. The cure was to require, in every case of dispute, that this individual official provide the specific codes under which enforcement was being taken. Where the dispute was an honest disagreement of interpretation, I would file the petition (at no cost) with the Fire Safety Board of Adjustment and accept the ruling of the appointed citizens (architect, engineer, and several lay persons). If your Building Official and/or Fire Chief are acting in bad faith, go first to their boss (city, county, or district manager), and if no solution is immediately forthcoming, go to the elected officials in a public forum and make your complaint. The important thing is that you not “rollover” if you believe you are correct. No official, regardless of position, has the authority to unilaterally amend the letter, meaning, or intent of the adopted codes.

It is refreshing to see a posting such as that of fire 1, above, where adherance to the law overrides any possible built-in bias. I would definitely utilize the mechanisms built into the statutes of your jurisdiction, rather than just roll over to make the pain go away. That way, even if the middle fish does prevail, it will be on the basis of statutary requirement, not of personal agenda. If he is allowed to establish a precedent with your case, outside of what is written in code or law, then the precedent can be cited for succeeding cases, and the agenda of middle fish then becomes, by default, the way things get done.

Good posting, fire 1

My husband is an Engineer for the second largest Fire Suppression Corporation in the world and when he told me how cheap it is to actually install a system into a house I was convinced it was the right idea for everyone. You can have systems installed for as little as $5000. Which I realize isn't pocket change but its a small price to pay for the peace of mind.

My husband is involved in creating new technology's and is currently working towards a double Masters Degree in Materials Science and Fire Science. His company works with the largest companies in the world to install their systems and also the smallest companies as well. They offer their services to general consumers (you and me) as well as the Air Force.

Shopping around and going with the actual manufacturer can save you tons, because the "middle man" is going to jack up the price like crazy.

If you want to know the specific name of my husbands company you can email me directly, I don't want to post it here because I am not trying to give the company a "plug" or free advertisement.

anij34@hotmail.com

I suppose in a previous post I should have indicated my support for residential sprinklers in new construction. I support them, and frankly wish more communities would adopt them.

But, the original quesion was whether to cave-in to a demand by a building/fire official for a system that is not required by the adopted codes. If that's factual, and the builder does not want include sprinklers, then he/she should resist until proven wrong. The way to fight any bureaucracy is to make it live by its own rules.

Man- I thought this thread was dead. I was sitting here wondering if I should try to enquire about the status of my building permit and -OR-contact the mayor to see what kind of person he is. I am afraid to do either because I fear it will just cause retribution. Even IF I get a permit I will face a major uphill battle with this guy on every issue let alone sprinkler issue.

I had a State code official inquire about appeal process and she was told that NO ONE has ever appealed a Building Code issue before. I find that very hard to beleive that I would be the first ever. That seems most discouraging.

I have tried to involve State officials to even just help me get "the rules". They all say that
they can do nothing and its all local control. I find that hard to beleive. Why even have a state "code council" then?

Last time I spoke to fire cheif months ago I was accused of trying to intimidate him for even asking specific questions such as "what book" are the rules in?

Media does not seem intrested even though I saw a TV news story not too long ago about fire hydrants that are either plugged up OR not even hooked up to a water main! I've got ZERO response on anything I've sent in. Maybe I don't know whom to contact or how?

A local radio host has been thru the process in my exact same AHJ and agrees that enforcement is selective, onerous etc etc but even he had no idea what could be done about it.

Someone from out of state with LOTS of fire exp. & knowledge offered to talk to officials but I am afraid to take him up on it because even if he tries to be anonimous the BO will know the second any specifics come up who the issue pertains to. I already feel like they are
simply "back shelving" my application and delaying simply by not responding to my inquiries. My very first phone meeting with him was a disaster because a corrections letter was not mailed to me so I had no Idea what he was talking about and I came off like a total moron
for not having the info in front of me. Not a good start!

The IRC book has some language about being a "stand alone code" but what does that mean if city or fire can just add anything they want?

It will cost me $500 just to have a lawyer send a letter asking for the same exact info.
Seems ludicrous to me that I should have to hire council just to figure out what set of rules I am being hammered with let alone try to argue any of it.

I'm just dust in the wind to them.

Stumped-
I understand your aversion to forking out $500.00 to send out a request that you yourself have made. And I have two different answers for you:
1st - Although I am unfamiliar with your state codes and statutes, one thing seems pretty universal when it comes to dealing with bureaucracy or a private business and an individuals rights of notification and explanation in the eyes of a court system: Write a formal request of explanation as kindly and straightforward as possible, addressing all of your questions and explanations desired. Be precise and as concise as possible. Make a copy of it for your records. Send out certified mail with signature required. Also, make copy of both sides of the outside of your envelope once ready for mail so you have a full copy of it. Send it off and make a file. When your certified mail form is returned add it to your file and keep with other legal paperwork regarding this project. Should you end up in any form of litigation, or in front of a review board you may present this as your good faith attempt to get some answers. (Also, keep a written list of dates, times, and person(s) spoke with and a brief explanation of conversation for all matters pertaining to your ordeal)
2nd – It never hurts to have an attorney on your side. And if you research the appropriate type of lawyer, he/she should be familiar with all of the pertinent codes, and may actually end up making your cost and headache diminish. Make sure and get appropriate counsel if you choose this route.
What I don’t understand is why you are unable to fine the codes addressing sprinklers on your own (although again I point out that I am in CA and things may be set up much differently here). I know you have obviously had one headache after another on this project, but your city should provide for review all statues and codes at the court house, local library, or even on the internet. If I search for my local codes here I can find them from my local county website, which lists all codes in full. Once at that page I simply tell it to “Find on Page” the particular work I am looking for. They let it search the site instead of reading each and every code.
I wish you luck with your project, and pray it comes to a satisfactory resolution shortly!

Shayni - Thanks for info. Its not that I can't find that same info. If the Fire Cheif won't tell me what book he is basing his decision on then how do I know. Its not simple. The IRC book makes it seem like ONLY it would apply. Problem is that it doesn't contain any fire flow information. IFC has fire flow information but how do I know if it applies to my case or not?
Then where does the NFPA fit in? If fire marshal tells me I cannot use one of the 4 NFPA 13D approved methods of supplying water what can I say? Some have said that he doesn't have the authority to do that. He says he's basing it on some of the commentary that went into making up the 13D "rules" Where is this commentary? Locked in a safe at IFC headquarters? Sure isn't on my cities web site.
Another problem is 3 different jurisdictions fighting for control of this subject. Fire Dept. is contracted from a neighboring city. Same with water purveyor. Fire says BO does not make the decision. BO says its his decision. Water just says screw them - we're increasing installations 75% for meters.
Round & round it goes!
I guess I'll keep shopping attornies. I am amazed at how few there are that deal with these issues.

Stumped- What county & city are you in. I see you are in Washington State With so much information out there, unless I know where you are it is hard to find any concrete information.

Stumped: You don't have a problem! Just sell that place, and move down here to North West Georgia. We still have Outhouses, if you own more than 5 acres. Build anyhting you want. Wire and plumb it yourself. And burn it down if you don't like it. We have plenty of rain, and rarely snow. As of the census² of 2000, there were 61,053 people, 23,605 households, and 17,467 families residing in the county. The population density was 53/km² (137/mi²). There were 25,577 housing units at an average density of 22/km² (57/mi²). The racial makeup of the county was 94.43% White, 3.78% Black or African American, 0.29% Native American, 0.28% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 0.36% from other races, and 0.84% from two or more races. 0.93% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.

This place is hard to beat.

Tom Markham
Lookout Mountain, GA