I hope someone can help.

I have a bedroom (about 14'X14') above my garage
that is about 21'W X30'L

There is an enclosure built under the bedroom floor that is 14'w x 14'L x 12"H
in this space there are two metal heat ducts. One sends heat to the room above, the other is open and was meant to heat the space.

there is no air return in the space.
there is insulation under ducts and above drywall.

does this seam like a good way to heat room and floor?

I'm wondering if I should just remove all that and the second duct.

Insulate joist under floor.
drywall.
put one insluated duct to heat room and small enclosure to cover just the duct

or should i keep current setup.

the enclosure is open in some places because there was water damage when i bought house.
so floor is cold and only cold air comes from duct (they are metal and get cold fast when furnace cycles off) I dont know if i should finsh it this way. or remove and redo it a better way.

this room is also the farthest from furnace so
not as much air comes out of ducts.

Its not uncommon to find the set up that you have.
I would if you can insulate the floor below the living space as best as possible. Also adding insulation to duct will help in stopping the cold blast you feel evertime the furnace comes on. Will not stop it completely but will help.
Be sure that the chase that the duct is enclosed in is tightly sealed from the garage. You do not want any fumes entering the ducts and getting into the living areas above.

As far as getting more air into the rooms, its not uncommon to find undersized duct runs in this type of area. Check to see if the furnace blower is set to mid speed for the heat cycle. This will provide more air to the rooms thus more comfort. A AC person can assist you in re-balancing the house so more air is delivered to the room(s) in question. I find that closing down the air supply in the room that has the thermostat will make the rest of the house hotter. This will cause a rise in costs, but is a quick short term solution to getting cold rooms warm. The rooms that result in being to hot can be closed down a bit on the supply grills thus allowing more air to be pushed to the colder rooms at the far end of the duct run.

thank you for your reply.
so your saying to remove the large enclosure and the second duct that was blowing air into the space, then just build new enclosure that covers the lenth of duct under the room?

I have pictures but dont know how to post them.

Not really sure what you mean about it blowing air into the space. If its not connected, sure remove it. If the duct is connected to the furnace in any way you need to determine if its the cold air return that was not completely finished.
But to insulate the duct properly do you need to remove the enclosure around it, or can you access the duct enough to insulate the three exposed sides and perhaps the top?

You can use snap fish to post photos then provide link to the page where they are located. That is what most folks do.

If the link below works, I posted some pics.
The second is not a return, it is connected
but it has been capped because the space is not sealed or finished.

I found a flexible duct at lowes that is made of fiberglass and some kind of plastic.


i made a little drawing to kinda show what im thinking of doing, but I dont know if my floor will still be cold.



http://www5.snapfish.com/thumb...BRAND_NAME=snapfish/

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You have several unresolved issues.

One has to do with an inappropiate forced air and return system design.

The other has to do with whether or not the ducts and floor insulation in a habitable space above an attached garage is adequate.

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First, if there is no return air duct planned for the space above the garage, it is a code violation and needs to be addressed.

Second, depending upon the age of the structure, and under what Code it was constructed, the ducts do not appear to be addequately insulated.

Modern floor Energy Code requirements for Detroit require at least R-30 insulation in the floor of any habitable heated/cooled space above a garage.

Modern Energy Codes would also require ducts (heat and return) to be insulated to at least an R-8 in Detroit.

Call you local code office for details and ignore any advice given here from people in states completely ignorant of your own or without any credentials to give sound energy advice whatsoever...

The floor should be insulated with R-30 or more depending on thickness of floor joists. The more the better. Be sure that the insulation is in direct contact with the floor. No air gaps if at all possible. The vapor barrier is to face the heated side of the room. So you should see the pink stuff when its put into place. They make little wires that will hold the insulation into place once you push it into the joist cavity.

Wrap the ducts you have with duct wrap. The bubble wrap would be fine. If you place round wood dowles on the duct pipe so when you wrap the bubble wrap around it prevents it from touching you will increase the R value of the wrap. Be sure to tape all seams with metal tape. You want to prevent any moisture from reaching the metal ducts your covering which will prevent condensation from forming.

If the duct that is capped off is not connected to anything then do not worry about it. You can remove it or leave it in place. Its not doing anything. If it is indeed connected to the furnace or just terminates in basement. I would be sure to cap both ends. You do not want this to allow transfer of air from garage to basement.

Better yet if you do not have a return duct in the room above. This can be converted to one. Connect it to the room with a floor boot unless you can get it towards the ceiling. And connect the other end to the furnace return, before the filter. This will aid in the heating and cooling of the room above. AS quite often these rooms over pressurize when the door is closed and the air flow slows down resulting in to hot or cold.

Be sure however to seal the duct seams with at least a tape. You can use a caulk made for this but tape will work as well.

As far as the dropped framing and ceiling in garage. Unless you have a need for that 12 or so inches of additional clearance. I would leave it in place. Just be sure that you re-sheetrock it with firecode sheetrock 5/8" and tape all seams. This is not only to protect you in case of a fire, but to seal off any fumes that may be coming from garage and prevent them from entering into the room.

Thanks for replies, Here is where im at.

I removed enclosure, and as much of the second duct I could, and capped it again.

I filled the joist with R30 and replaced the main duct that heats the room above with an insulated duct. I dont have drywall up yet but
there is a huge difference already. I'm not sure how it will be when winter gets here.

I'm thinking about leaving it without drywall to see if it will be ok, if not I will rebuild enclosure better. Some body told me about using
foam around enclosure and gluing joints instead of pink fiberglass. What do you think?

I do like the the extra height in th garage. all that shows is the heat duct.



the garage is only used for storage right now, so fumes is not a problem.

I

Does mpt matter if your using the garage for a storage area or not. You should seal the ceiling. Also Inclose the flex duct you put in as well.
Also inclosing the insulation will help the R factor as it acts as a air barrier and stops drafts.
Not sure what you mean about using foam around inclosure. But they make fire block foam that comes in can. That should be used anywhere there are cracks and openings that enter into the floor above and within the wall areas. Such as wires pipes etc. Simply spray around the edges to seal these voids.

Again.

Ignore completely those who provide answers here without any knowledge.

'Bubble wrap' is no known nor approved 'insulation' anywhere in the US.

One cannot remove drywall from a ceiling of any garage when there is habitable space above.

Michigan Code requires at least 5/8ths inch of Type X drywall to separate any garage from habitable space above.

Talk to your local code office for details then compare that expert advice to some of the ridiculous 'answers' provided in this forum...

Perhaps you were to busy to notice, but all the major HVAC suppliers are selling this type of duct wrap as it both is easier to use and offers a much better R value then the inch and a half thick fiberglass stuff on the market. I am not talking about the stuff with the adhesive on one side that some home centers sell. This material comes in four foot width rolls both 50 and 100 feet long.

No one said to remove the dry wall on the ceiling of his garage other then to insulate. If you bothered to read the post we suggested that he does re-rock the garage, regardless of what he is using the garage for.

I do belive I also stated to use the 5/8 rock as well. But you must be to absorbed in your code book to read what were saying.

So before you ridicule someone and state some code fact and how we do not have any knowledge I suggest you read and understand what both the person who asked the question and the person who has been doing this work for many years (correctly I may add) response is.

You have offered in the past many helfull hints and advice and I also have learned some things, but I have no understanding on why you must continue this attempt to make yourself some sort of code expert and think that everyone else here has no idea on what they are talking about.
Remember many of these folks here are people who are looking for the real world answer to a issue they are having. Anyone can cite code on any number of issues. But every issue is not that black and white and some times regardless of the code the understanding of why and how things work provides the necessary information to the poster so they do the work correctly.
In addition most of my posts suggest that they get permits when required or to consult with a professional in this area for their expertise on the issue they are having. So sit down, relax and offer the sound advice you often offer without all the garbage how your way or the code is the only way to do things and that the advice here is from folks who have no knowledge. Nuff said..

Sorry I meant if I need to rebuild and run heat inside enclosure, I was told the foam would work well and joints could be sealed better than the pink fiberglass around the outside of enclosure. I plan on putting up sheetrock just wanted to be sure I wouldnt need to rebuild the box and need that extra duct. i like the extra height in the garage.

last night was colder and air from the duct to the room was a little cool. better than the old metal duct, but still not good. so it will need to be enclosed.

Again, ignore the rantings of everyone in this forum who has no clue what are the factual code realities of your local jurisdiction.

"Codes" are not just 'good recommendations' as some here mistakenly assert..."Codes" are the legally required building standard minimum adopted by national, state or local jurisdication..

Michigan Building Code requires R-30 in floors above unconditioned garages and at least 5/8th inch Type X drywall on the ceiling and structural supports of habitable spaces above garages.

Without question.

If anyone has questions, refer them to the local Michigan Code Office of the local jurisdication....

Not HERE!

Enclosing the duct anymore then boxing it in and using the pre-wrapped flex duct is all your going to get as far as heat delivery. As far as the cooler then but better. Most likely the size of the duct is to small for the heat requirements of the room. Perhaps that was what the other duct was supposed to be for but never was completed.

I would look into getting another duct into the room from the heating unit, or perhaps install a short electrical baseboard heater in the room to use as extra back up when it gets real cold.

Running the heat inside the enclosure or out is not the question here. If your going to insulate the floor joists that the enclosure is attached to, which leaves a large air space between the enclosure framing and the bottom of the floor joists, that is not the correct way of doing this. You need to insulate the floor itself.

Of course you need to put in as much insulation as possible in this area. As homebild says R-30 is the ideal amount. But if you do not have the floor joists that will hold that amount because perhaps your home was built before this was a requirement and framing was undersized to hold R-30 put what you can in. Remember that the vapor barrier faces the heated side of the home.

As far as the duct is concerned., if your taking down the rest of this boxed in area and your not using steel ducts. You must enclose the duct for fire safety. Steel ducts are ok, as long as the openings where they enter and exit the living walls are sealed tightly.

I would regardless of steel or flex duct box it in. Adding more insulation after the duct is already insulated properly to use as extra insurance will be fine and may help some more. But as I said I think your issue is undersized air flow for the size of the room your attempting to heat.

I would also if you have not done so sheetrock the ceiling. I am sure this will help as well. By enclosing the ceiling will help stop any drafts that can make it harder for the insulation to do its job.

Thanks for help. And homebuild, I understand your point and concern about code, and I want this to be safe and propper. I bought this foreclosure home with this problem, and so whatever saftey issuses exist now, were here when i bought house. so the plan is to fix it as soon as possible but like lots of people, **$ is also an issue. so no contractors. everything seem original since house was built in 72. i seen a few other home in my hood with garages that were finished like mine with the dropped enclosure under the bedroom part, but cant tell for sure if floor was heated because like i said their garages and ceilings are finished. Didnt home need final building inspections in '72? how could it not have a return air setup

The code changes as time goes by. What was OK a few years ago may not be considered proper now.

I am sure you hear the words grandfatherd from time to time. In some cases because the home was done one way they may overlook something that would not normally pass inspection today.

However this is up to the inspection body in your area to determine what and if they will overlook something.

For instance, Smoke alarms. Now they need to be hard wired. But only a few years ago batteries were all that was needed. Now if you pull any permits to construct an addition which requires a smoke alarm, you must now wire the entire house with them.

As far as your garage, and your area, if it is anything like our area, when we had our building boom a few years back, there were simply not enough inspectors,nor time to see every detail when a home is being built. Its not uncommon to find something amiss on occasion. This does not give you a pass however. You must make things safe and proper.

The 2nd duct if it was connected to the heat supply was not used to heat the floor. Or at least should not have been. Perhaps someone came along who thought this was a grand idea and did this as a selling option. Regardless of why it was done or how, is no longer an issue.
If you can use it to supply the room with another supply duct. Go for it. A return duct is also desired, but supply air is more important first.