This is my 1st post:

I have a 1930's 2 story, 2x4 stick frame house.
I have completely gutted the 1st floor rooms and I'm doing a complete remodel, rewire, and replumbing of the house.
It has an upstairs that has rooms and a bathroom, but no attic space, as the rooms are incorporated with the rooflines.
I don't have enough depth in the 2x4 walls or the 2x6 ceiling space for enough fiberglass insulation. I live in Eastern Washington State where it gets 100+ degrees in the Summer, and below zero in the Winter.
I need at least R-12 in the walls, and R-38 in the ceiling.
My plan is to "fir-out" the walls with 2"x3" lumber to make them 6" deep. I would like to use R-13 (3.5" deep) fiberglass in the outside (original) wall space, and use "R-Max, Thermasheild 3" (closed cell, polyisocyanurate foam bonded to reinforced aluminum foil facers on each side)on the most inner part of the wall, where the added 2x3 strips are.
I am only mixing because of the high cost of the foam panels.
For the ceiling, I would like to use (2) 2" and (1) 1" layer of the foam panel (R-6.5 per inch) this would give me a combined R-value of R-32.5.

I believe that using this foam board, I would also be sealing the house up much better than just using the fiberglass insulation.

I would like suggestions and thoughts from anyone experienced with this type of insulation, and what/how I should keep or change what I'm doing?

Anybody out there?

Hello?????

Do not waste your time with the foam boards.
You will not be able to get a proper fit around wires, plumbing etc. And if you layer the stuff you will have issues with the possibility of trapped moisture in the wall.

You can purchase R-13 fiberglass insulation that should fit in the standard 2x4 stud wall you already have.

Also the key is not only R factor but proper vapor barrier as well. Any dampness that seeps into the wall from vapor pressure within the home will lower the ability of the insulation to stop the transfer of heat. my suggestion is to use a non-faced insulation and then cover the entire wall with a plastic vapor barrier.

Heat loss in walls is not as a big concern as it is with ceilings. If you have part of the ceilings pitched with the roof angle, you can either fir down the angle to provide enough insulation to increase the R value in this area or live with what you can put in there. Do not forget to leave at least one inch clearance between the insulation and the roof sheathing. No doing so will prevent proper air into the attic and over heat this area causing other ill effects both in the attic and within the living area.

Also you mentioned cost. Your payback in heat/cooling savings by increasing the R value will take many years for the extra costs and time your going to incur using the panels in the walls. Your best money is spent in the attic areas as most of your heat loss is out the ceilings.

The other method you may want to look into is spray foam system. The initial cost may be a bit more, but the ability of the spray foam in stopping the air flow, vapor transmission and the increased R value because of the ability of the foam getting into the nooks and crannies of the wall is much better then any other type of insulation you can get.

quote:

Do not waste your time with the foam boards.
You will not be able to get a proper fit around wires, plumbing etc. And if you layer the stuff you will have issues with the possibility of trapped moisture in the wall.

This is not true at all.

Combinations of foam insulation and fiberglass batts are approved and commonly used all the time for such situuations like these, and approved for use by energy Codes everywhere.

First, the original poster already stated he had 'gutted' the structure so that wiring and plumbing concerns are simply not there.

Second, installing rigid foam on the exterior-most side of stud or wall cavities can eliminate completely any need for a vapor retarder at all...depending on the type of foam ("open" or "closed" cell).

Irregardless, the use of foams and vapor retarders only needs to be matched to type to avoid any problems.

That said, rigid foam normally needs to be placed on the outside most surface of the stud, floor or ceiling cavity...not on the interior or 'warm-in-winter' side of the wall, floor or ceiling assembly.

The reason is that placing the rigid foam against the outermost surface of the thermal envelope normally raises the cavity temperature above the 'dew point', thereby eliminating the need for a vapor retarder on the fiberglass immediately under drywall.

quote:

"Do not forget to leave at least one inch clearance between the insulation and the roof sheathing. No doing so will prevent proper air into the attic and over heat this area causing other ill effects both in the attic and within the living area."

This is also not true.

Air space and ventilation is not required for stud, floor, and ceiling/roof cavities where the space is kept above the dew point or the cavitiy is constructed from materials that are not damaged by moisture.

Installing rigid or sprayed foam against the roof assembly, or constructing the roof assembly from Insulated Structueral Panels, or creating a 'conditioned attic' completely eliminates the need for ventilation above any insulation at all.

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At any rate,

The original poster can find all his answers here at the Washington State Building Codes website:

http://sbcc.wa.gov/Page.aspx?nid=14


Or bay calling his local Code Enforcement Office.


Just scroll and click on the ling for the 2006 Washington State Energy Code for compliance information.

Washington state has severe moisture issues being on the coast.

Wall cavities cannot simply be filled in with foam boards. While I agree if he or she wants to cover all the studs with foam, thats fine. But to cut the foam boards to fill in the spaces between the studs is a waste of time and air will escape if not perfect.

In addition, how would this person wire and pipe the walls once the foam boards are in place? These must be in place and INSPECTED prior to any insulation being placed. So open walls or not, he or she will still have to deal with these items.

Also vapor barriers in that part of country needs to be next to the heated side of the structure. Installing a vapor barrier on the exterior most side of the wall will do nothing to prevent moisture from getting into the wall and condensing.

For the roof again simply fitting foam boards up against the roof sheathing will be a BIG mistake. If this person decides to do the entire pitch of the attic and seal off any posibility of air flow then perhaps, but my reading into this the ceiling is only part pitched along the edges. If they do this then the attic will loose critial air flow along the edges and there can be the issue of ice damming.

quote:

"Washington state has severe moisture issues being on the coast."

Unfortunately and again, The Home Care Club LLC speaks nonsense.

Washington State is broken up into (at least) THREE energy zones.

And while 'moisture' is indeed an issue in the western 3rd of this state, (Marine C Zone 4), The EASTERN portion of the state (Where the original poster lives) has no such concerns and is considered Dry (B) Zone 5 & 6...otherwise known as "High Desert".

quote:

"In addition, how would this person wire and pipe the walls once the foam boards are in place? These must be in place and INSPECTED prior to any insulation being placed. So open walls or not, he or she will still have to deal with these items."

Such ridiculous comments only lead me to conclude that The Home Care Club LLC has NEVER built anything ANYWHERE...has NEVER built or ever had any structure he built INSPECTED ANYWHERE...or he would never be making such absurd statements!

FIRST: there is NO REQUIREMENT under ANY CODE that rough plumbing nor rough wiring be done PRIOR to insulation.

NONE.

The ONLY requirement is that the cavity be properly insulated and that any pipe or wire that comes within 1 1/4" of the edge of any stud be 'protected' from penetration by nails or screws.

It is entirely acceptable (and done all the time) that rigid or sprayed foam be installed in roof, wall, and floor cavities FIRST...then plumbing and wiring done...and then properly inspected....

Only someone who has never built anything would claim differently.

SECOND: Washington State Building Code contradicts what The Home Care Club LLC falsey claims when he stated:

quote:

"Also vapor barriers in that part of country needs to be next to the heated side of the structure. Installing a vapor barrier on the exterior most side of the wall will do nothing to prevent moisture from getting into the wall and condensing."

Such astonishingly wrong misunderstanding only reaffirms 'Home Club's" ignorance.

Washington State Energy Code (as well as every other enegry code in the US) allows for 'engineered designs' such as Insulated Structural Panels,foams boards against the thermal envelope, spray foam insulation and all other techniques that DO NOT REQUIRE a VAPOR RETARDER on the warm-in-winter-side of the thermal envelope when the 'thermal barrier' is moved to the OUTSIDE of the 'thermal envelope'.

Only someone who knows NOTHING about Energy Conservation (as appararntly "Home Club" does not) would falsely claim such ludicrous things.

Washington State Energy Code, (as do all other US Energy Codes) also do not REQUIRE an 'air space' under ALL circumstances.

Exception is given under 'moisture control' when:

-the cavity is constructed of materials that will not be damaged by condensation or freezing

-the thermal envelope is moved outside the cavity

-the construction takes place in areas that do not require moisture control.
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Don't know what else to say except that "Home Care" is a fraud when it comes to Energy Code and accepted Insualtion techniques.

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And by the way, I am a Nationally Certified Commercial and Residential Energy Code Inspection Professional...

'Home Club' is an amateur with no professional Energy Code Training at best....

So tell me smart Ars how is the person going to install wire and pipes in a wall that has foam boards in it after they insulate? I am sure he or she has the heat knifes that all homeowners have to properly cut into the boards to fit such things.

A home owner who has never done this type of work has no idea on what he or she is going to be up against. Therefore I stand on my advice to this person that using foam boards is going to be difficult at best and that they should stick to my advice. They can have the walls foamed in place after they do the wires and pipes, as I do agree that will be fine. But using the foam boards typcially purchased from the home centers will cost more and work poorly as compared to roll fiberglass insulation with a proper vapor barrier.

As far as calling my company or myself a Fraud, Amateur, etc. A true professional will only answer with their opinion without using such UN-professional language whaich apparently your not. You have lost my respect and the respect of many others I am sure with that type of response.

Can we disagree without calling names and casting aspersions on another's character?

God knows I've been wrong, even though I give my best advice in good faith always. We should allow others the same opportunity to be human, because sooner or later, we will all need the same understanding and opportunity, homebild included.

We can certainly correct people without insulting them.

Fine by me.

But HomeCareClub's information remains completely WRONG and UNSUBSTANTIATED under ANY Energy Code or Energy Research agency regarding moisture control...

So let the reader decide....and make up his own mind.

A PROFESSIONAL calling and AMATEUR an 'AMATEUR' when it is appropriate is only an 'insult' to the 'amatuer' who LIES about his lack of qualification.

In this case, the AMATEUR remains just that, and the true PROFESSIONAL who he is....despite protests to the contrary...

The original poster should consult his own Washington State Building and Energy Codes for decisive answers.

They will not concur with HomeCareClub's.

Sorry.

As for my location in Washington State, I live East of the Cascades...cold winters, hot and very dry summers...it is a "semi-arid" desert region.

As for plumbing and wiring around the panels, that would not be a problem. The outside walls I have already added 2"x2" firring to make the walls an even 6" deep...I was planning to install 1", or 2" aluminium faced closed cell foam panels (R 7 per inch) as both the vapor barrier, and Insulator.
I plan to seal any gaps with expanding foam, and have thought of just cuting slightly undersized panels, then sealing around all edges with expanding foam, this should seal it air tight?
The remaining wall space would be filled with fiberglass insulation.

I have worked around foam panels many times, and even helped build a foam panel home that the walls were made of 6" foam with steel studs impregnated into the wall panel.

Also, as stated, I'm a 20+ year Journeyman Electrician, IBEW Local 112, so I have worked around many different types of building systems, mostly Industrial, but, cut my teeth on Residential when I started.

So, am I ok to do this?

I do appreciate the help, again, thank you.


Rick

Hello,
I posted information on my location and other specifices...could you give me a recomendation from the added information?

Thanks,


Rick

quote:

Originally posted by homebild:
Fine by me.

But HomeCareClub's information remains completely WRONG and UNSUBSTANTIATED under ANY Energy Code or Energy Research agency regarding moisture control...

So let the reader decide....and make up his own mind.

A PROFESSIONAL calling and AMATEUR an 'AMATEUR' when it is appropriate is only an 'insult' to the 'amatuer' who LIES about his lack of qualification.

In this case, the AMATEUR remains just that, and the true PROFESSIONAL who he is....despite protests to the contrary...

The original poster should consult his own Washington State Building and Energy Codes for decisive answers.

They will not concur with HomeCareClub's.

Sorry.

What you propose to do is Code Compliant and perfectly fine for an existing home.

The key is to get as much recommended insulation into your framed cavities as possible.

Code says "whatever" insulation you can fit in existing space is 'ok' by Code.