Does anybody have any information regarding building with ICF basement thru 2nd floor versus and ICF basement with 2x6 first and second floors and Icynene as the insulator?

We have an ICF home in Illinois (on the market) which we love but are finding it difficult to sell, probably because of price (4600 + sq ft, almost all ICF). We wanted to build another after transferring jobs but a local contractor has us considering ICF foundation and Icynene for main and 2nd floors.

What kind of cost difference is there? Are they both equally insulating?

No matter how you address it, using ICFs for upper stories is going to vastly increase the cost of the home without returning anything in greater insulating value or property value.

ICFs would not provide enough minimum code required insulation for above grade use (without taking into account mass wall insulating factors) so you might need to still add additional insulation to ICF walls used above grade depending on your location.

Below grade R-factors are only about R-10 in most US locations. This is about the maximum R-rating that ICFs can supply.

But above grade walls can require R-21 and above depending upon location. And as already mentioned and mass walls aside, you may need to increase your insulation if you rely on ICFs above grade.

Using ICFs above grade would also increase the cost to add framing in order to run utilities and to hang drywall and siding. Added depth of jambs for doors and windows would also drive up the cost without adding return.

Using ICFs above grade can be done, but not without significant extremley costly increases in labor and material costs and with nothing to show for the added money spent.

ICFs used above grade would make future remodeling very difficult if side walls ever needed to be changed or window openings modified.

In short, using ICFs for anything but below grade application is not practical.

Icynene can be used for upper stories but is also a more expensive alternative to conventional fiberglass or cellulose insulation anbd it must be applied by certified professionals which may not be available in your immediate area..

Apart from ISPs (Insulating Structural Panels) conventional stick framing and insulating techniques remian the most cost effective and most practical.

homebild,

Thanks for the reply. However, are we talking about the same thing? Our ICF blocks are calculated to R23 but supposedly actual R value is around 50 due to lack of air infiltration. Our Illinois home is made with Logix. You are correct that we do have increased cost with other items we did not initially consider. Our trim is solid maple and an 8" wide piece is a lot more expensive than a 2" wide piece. However, it makes for a beautiful windowsill, if you appreciate wood. Overall, we have been very happy with the home and would have never moved had my job not transferred.

What I'm told regarding Icynene vs fiberglass is about 2x the cost, which is the difference a friend of ours paid to insulate his home w/ icynene. What I don't know is the insulating difference between insulated concrete form versus icynene. I would rather pay for the quality up front rather than save initially on construction costs and pay for the increased energy down the road.

Brogs:
My wife and I in mertro Atlanta will be building a 2 story ICF house this fall. we will be using Polysteel ICF's. I would enjoy hearing about your current ICF experience.
Also, I am very familiar with Icynene. As a remodeling contractor, we have used it dozens of times on projects.

I am a building contractor who has installed icf walls, below and above grade, as well as sprayed foam in walls.
ICF's are very expensive but you are definitely correct that most icf systems will give you a r-22 insulation. My recommendation is that you forget Icynene, which is a open cell foam, and go with a closed cell foam which will give you double the "R" value per inch. I have sprayed both open and closed cell foam for my customers but have found problems with the soft open cell foam that never enters the picture with the 2 pound closed cell foam. Most houses that we have built lately we have either used ICF for the basement, or concrete block and firred it out with a 2x4 and sprayed 3 inches of hard foam for a r value of 21, with net effective value of about an r-40.
Most foam contractors like to sell the soft foam because it is easier to trim and has a higher profit margin. Hard (2 lb) foam is harder to trim but you don't have the shrinkage problems with it, adds rigidity to the structure, will not harbor mold or mildew, does not hyper activate which will lead to large air bubbles or blisters in the stud cavity therefore losing the effective R value. Don't get me wrong Icynene is a tremendous product, 10 times better than fiberglass, but the hard foam is 15 time better than soft Icynene foam.
Do some research, but I would definitely recommend finding a foaming contractor who will spray 2 pound, class 1 fire rated foam in your new home, you will not be sorry.
PS. hard foam will cost a little more than Icynene but is well worth it. We even use it in all our homes we build for Speculation puposes.

Being an Energy Star rated builder I have tried many diiferent types of construction. I have built one home with two stories and a basement of ICF's. It was very labor intensive, we used extra bracing during construction and still had some bowed walls, there are many more problems involved that the manufacturers will not tell you also. It is extremely quiet and energy efficient though. I would recommend using pre-cast basement walls (one of the companies I know of is Superior Walls). I have used their system numerous times. No leaks! I am now using SIPS for the upper stories. Very cost effective and efficient. Here in Tennessee I have been cutting utility bills by over half! I just completed three homes stick built using Expanding urethane as the insulation. Very efficient but would not recommend downspraying on sheetrock ceilings. This worked great because of the complexity of our framing. Icynene runs two to three times the cost of batting.Hope this helps a little. There are alot of alternaive construction practices if you are willing to try something new. Also make sure that you use an erv or some sort air exchange unit if you are building an extremely tight home. It will prevent future problems with molds and stale air.

Insulated Concrete Forms have many features beyond the obvious energy savings. I have done several energy ratings on ICF homes here in Illinois and the these have all been energy star certified houses. They are extremely sound proof but also offer wind resistance of 200 miles an hour to high wind occurances. Fire ratings vary between 2 and 4 hours.I would reccommend getting refernces from your local home builders association or even your local carpenters hall for some reputable installers of these systems. I spoke with a builder who recently framed both the basement and upper story with ICF's. He priced the upper story out of 2"X6"'s also. He told me that the price difference was 3%. I realize that these numbers can vary depending on the market and experience of the labor force. I beleive that if you do your home work and develope a solid "Team Approach" to using these systems you will have a successfull and cost effecient project.

Like Kenergy Builders mentioned, you may want to consider using SIPS (Structured Insulating Panel Systems) for your above grade floors. SIPS provide superior insulating value over traditional stud construction (no matter what type of insulation is used as wood itself is a thermal conductor), while costing less than ICF construction. SIPS come in various thickesses depending upon the desired R-Value, and can be pre-cut offsite to speed up the building process.

There are a number of different suppliers / providers of these systems, one of which is R-Control (http://www.rcontrol.com) that offers both products. I have used both ICF & SIPS products for different applications & requirements, and have been satisfied each time.

The other benefit to consider with SIPS is that it can be used for floors or roofing as well, so high R-value vaulted ceilings & crawl-space applications are possible.

Thanks to all for the great info. I will look into closed cell foam versus ICF now.

CEO - our builder had never built w/ ICF. He did a great job. Walls all square, no blow-outs. We used LOGIX which has (or had) the thickest polystyrene foam on the market, 2.75" on each side for 5 and 1/2 inches total. The thing we did not do which we should have is 1) our garage and 2 rooms above are traditional framed, we should have done all ICF and 2) our ceiling insualtion is standard fiberglass, we should have done spray foam (closed cell). Other than that, we love the house. It is hard to find a plastic tie to attach things to outside walls, however.

There are a lot of products out there. I think the best ones utilize a monolithic wall structure as opposed to waffle grid or post and beam. Nudura, Eco Block, Logix and many others are available and are virtually the same. Our builder looked at them all and selected LOGIX. I was going to use Reddi-Wall but after really looking at the product, it isn't so good.

Brogs,
Where is the house you are trying to sell? Why would you be having trouble selling it? We are considering building with ICF's in the south suburbs of Chicago and would love the name of the builder you used, if you are close.
Lisa

Lisa,

Our builder is in Mt Zion, SA Lewis Construction, owner is Steve Lewis. Mt Zion is a sububurb of Decatur. Being near Decatur is probably why it hasn't sold. Also, since it's ICF, most buyers are unaware of the added value of ICF and hence, when compared to traditional stick built, the cost increase is prohibitive. Also, it's a custom home and you can't always recoup your costs when compared to a similarly built contractor home with contractor grade amenities. We hope to sell soon and when we do will look seriously at building our next home with SIPS (structural insulated panels).

Our builder has an internet site, SALewisconstruction.com.

Brogs,
Thanks for the reply. Your builder is a little far, but maybe he knows someone in my area. We are mainly looking for a crew with experience.
Lisa

Lisa,

Experience may help but our builder had never built an ICF home before. The most important thing is finding a contractor who is willing to learn the process which is taught on-site by almost all ICF suppliers at no additional charge. We've had many compliments on our home.

Brogs,
I'm curious about the problems you're having in selling your ICF home, as we will be putting our ICF home on the market early next spring. I assume you've had appraisals/market analyses, and my question is how were these done (taking into account your ICF construction and particularly comparisons)? I would think that being of ICF construction and with the cost of energy today, that it would be an attractive consideration to buyers. Our heating/cooling system is geothermal, which was more expensive to install but our utility bills are very inexpensive. (We heat over 3800 sq. ft., and our highest TOTAL power bill last year was $145., and our Michigan winter was bitter cold.) We have not had any appraisals or market analyses yet, and don't know what to expect there with comparisons, etc. We couldn't be happier with both our home and geothermal system, and having bought property in Tennessee, we hope to almost duplicate this place down there. Hope to hear from you or any others with experience in this area. Thank you, and good luck at selling your home.

gardenangelpat,

our home was only 18 months old when placed on the market. our mortage loan officer indicated the prior appraisal was good. the market is soft in our price range, not many homes for sale or selling in the range. incidentally, our worst heat bill was $250 which included running a gas fireplace 35 hours per week. we got nailed this summer with a total power bill of $350, but air at 70 and 2 weeks with highs over 90. the home is over 4600 sq ft including the walkout basement. we're probably hurt most in that the home is just not that old.

gardenangelpat,

gardenangelpat,
Can you tell me anout your geothermal system. It sounds like somethign I should investigate.

nywines,
Geothermal heat pumps are the most energy efficient of any central heating/cooling system. An optional desuperheater will provide basically free hot water most of the year. Geothermal systems use horizontal or vertical ground loops, pump and dump, or pond loops to heat/cool. We love our system---the thermostat is set on automatic so it can either heat or cool (we set it and forget it). With the high cost of energy right now (and it probably won't go down any time soon), I would think geothermal will become more popular. If anyone is interested in learning more about geothermal, I advise them to go online to learn everything possible, and then talk to an experienced installer. And I do mean EXPERIENCED---someone who has installed a large number of geothermal systems. Speak to customers, and do your homework. Good luck.

Hello,
I saw your message on the thread below and have an additional question. I have a question about an application I am interested in.
I have a 60 year old masonary home with the plaster over 1/4" drywall over furing strips. It is cold and drafty in the winter. Would you suggest that I use the spray in foam to reto-fit the walls with insulation? I read from corabond that they do not recommend their hard cell foam product as it will blow out the walls. Have you done any jobs like this before?
Regards,
Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by jlyt:
I am a building contractor who has installed icf walls, below and above grade, as well as sprayed foam in walls.
ICF's are very expensive but you are definitely correct that most icf systems will give you a r-22 insulation. My recommendation is that you forget Icynene, which is a open cell foam, and go with a closed cell foam which will give you double the "R" value per inch. I have sprayed both open and closed cell foam for my customers but have found problems with the soft open cell foam that never enters the picture with the 2 pound closed cell foam. Most houses that we have built lately we have either used ICF for the basement, or concrete block and firred it out with a 2x4 and sprayed 3 inches of hard foam for a r value of 21, with net effective value of about an r-40.
Most foam contractors like to sell the soft foam because it is easier to trim and has a higher profit margin. Hard (2 lb) foam is harder to trim but you don't have the shrinkage problems with it, adds rigidity to the structure, will not harbor mold or mildew, does not hyper activate which will lead to large air bubbles or blisters in the stud cavity therefore losing the effective R value. Don't get me wrong Icynene is a tremendous product, 10 times better than fiberglass, but the hard foam is 15 time better than soft Icynene foam.
Do some research, but I would definitely recommend finding a foaming contractor who will spray 2 pound, class 1 fire rated foam in your new home, you will not be sorry.
PS. hard foam will cost a little more than Icynene but is well worth it. We even use it in all our homes we build for Speculation puposes.

Question for everyone here...I hope someone can help!!

I am having a custom home built and am having a tough time with the insulation issue. Standard with the house is 2x4s for the entire house with bats...first floor has 9 foot ceilings, second floor 8 foot ceilings...

Modifications include 2x6 and 10 foot ceilings on the first floor with either bats (50% more thickness) or icynene...the builder will not entertain 2x6s on the second floor...

I don't know whether I should go with the icynene at all or 50% more bats thickness with the 2x6s on the first floor and standard bats with the 2x4s on the second floor.

If I get 2x6s on the first floor with the 10 foot ceilings, I can also use icynene...which, of course, will give me 50% more thickness...

So many options...I have read a lot about icynene and it looks vastly superior to standard insulation...looking at tons of sites, I don't see many downsides...plus, it appears to qualify me for a tax credit...

I live in the east coast (D.C. area), so I don't get too many extremely cold days but summers can be brutally hot.

I am hoping some knowledgeable here can assist...I read above about the hard foam, but I don't think my builder offers that as an option...icynene mentions a 50% reduction in gas/electric costs...this, alone, would be huge...also, if the first floor is 2x6s, it'd probably also be more than this?

Thanks for your help,

headless