I am building a 30x40x14 pole barn. It will be heated with a radiant slab, using 2" foam under the slab. I am shaking out the wall and ceiling insulation still though. Spray foam is to expensive. Batts could be done, by stapling them together to fill the 8' void, but my number once choice is blown fiberglass or cellulose anyone worked with it, blown fiberglass is supposed to not settle like cellulose does. the wall section will be 8.5" making the wall r-19. Then put 14-16 in the ceiling would be r-38. I will use a plastic vapor barrier and 7/16 osb inside. I am open for input thanks everyone.

Scott

If you need R-38 in the ceiling, then 2 inches of foam will probably be insufficient for the floor insulation with radiant heat.

You will need much thicker panels to span eight feet than the 7/16 OSB you propose, and your insulation may need to be covered by a non-combustible material such as gypsum board. Moer than likely, supplemental wall framing will be needed for a staisfactory wall assembly.

I think were on diffrent pages. The spry foam for the walls is to expensive so that is out. The 2" of foam under the concrete is to insulate the cement so i heat the barn not the ground underneath.

For the walls there will be 2x4 gerts that run horizontal at 2' OC that the OSB will get attached to (just like how the outside metal is framed.

My question was on the wall and cieling insulation dry blown cellulose or blown fiberglass, both with vapor barrier on the warm side. But from what i read fiberglass has a lower R rating but won't settle, cellulose some say settles some say it does not.

Scott

Why radiant floor heat? What about ceiling mounted radiant tube heaters? Work real well. Will heat the floor and all objects in it much faster. If you have not looked into this I suggest you do. Cost is much less and works better.

COsts Less and Works better...I like the sounds of that but the pex tubing will cost $300 or less. Everything I have ever read and seen has said and shown radiant floor is the way to go. Once you get your concrete up to temp you have 4" of solid rock at temp. Your idea would work great for heating at the time of use but we wanted to do radiant since were going to heat the barn at a constant temp all winter long, not turning the temp up and down based on use.

Scott

Back to basics:

We need additional information before anyone can intelligently answer:

Where do you live? (County and State would be ok)

Vapor retarders are not required with every type of inuslation (like cellulose) nor in every climate.

I am in southwest lower Michigan.

Scott

There is no reason for not leaving the ceiling tube heaters on all the time during the winter. These heaters heat objects, such as the floor which will warm up. The benifit of above radiant heat is the recovery period if a door or window is opened. While the floor will recover the room temp, Any person or object exposed to the ceiling heaters, will feel warm long before the air temps come back up.
Also because the PEX cost less,does not excuse the costs of the boiler, manifolds, etc to make it work. I would look ito it more before you decide. Also depends on what your plans are for the structure.

Were going to use a High Effenciy 50 gallon water heater, I have been to 3 diffrent barns done this way and the owners love it, most are heating a 40x60 barn the entire winter for around $350 worth of propane. I am looking for more info on the insulation options for the barn, blown cellulose, blown fiberglass, or fiberglass batts? Vapor Barrier? etc.

Scott

I am also building a pole barn 30x22x10 with a gambrel roof and 2nd floor. I am looking for insulation options also, what have you decided to use ?
Thanks,
TMurphy

Cellulose is the best overall insulation material but foam has a higher r-value. Don't even consider fiberglass. If the cellulose is pressure blown in the walls like it should be then it won't settle.

We ended up using blown fiberglass from johns manville. We put up 4mil vapor barrier over the interior girts and then filled between the posts by cutting the plastic the taping it back up when finished. I know adam right above me said to not even consider fiberglass, but the only cellulose that won't settle it the stuff that is sprayed into the wall with some sort of binder, he is right that cellulose has a higher r-value, but the fiberglass while have a higher value after the cellulose settles, not to mention the 1 foot void you will have at the top of the wall. Adam sells cellulose and everyone has there theroy, mine is the fiberglas is better long term from all the research that i did.

Scott

To clear up any confusion: Cellulose WILL NOT settle if it is pressure blown(this isn't wet blown). If its loose blown then it will settle a bit. Also, blown-in fiberglass will loose some of its R-value as it gets cold out. One study has shown it to loose about 15% of its R-value at 20F(thats positive not negative). It looses about 40% at -18F. Blown-in fiberglass is also just as bad as batts when it comes to controlling air movement, which it doesn't do well. One study has also shown that blown-in fiberglass settling but there is no requirement for manufacturers to tell you how much it will settle. Cellulose, however, is sold at the settled amount. Plus the mice like it.

But like I said, cellulose is the best overall insulation material. Foam is also great because if its R-value.

Adam all I am trying to say is that you sell and install cellulose and your never going to say another product is better than what you sell, which is fine I really don't care how you market. I mean look you even try really hard to not bash spray foam cause you know its far better than cellulose or fiberglass, but the cost is also far higher. I was responding to "TMurphy" about why I did what I did and don't need a sales pitch. I consdered cellulose but when you consider it for a pole building it does not make sense. for the following reasons.

#1 the steel siding manufacturers will void the warranty if there is blown fiberglass aginst the metal due to the chemicals added to the cellulose, why put something in the wall thats going to eat the finish and the metal?

#2 weight- cellulose out weights fiberglass, in a pole barn were your talking a 30' or even more span. in michigan here you have to deal with the snow weight and you suggest putting in a heavy insulation material now, not to mention again you have a chemical based material around the plates holding the trusses together. Next weight issue is the walls, take a 8' wide, 14' tall, and 8.5" thick wall cavity, that alot of weight your asking 6 mil vapor barrier to hold up, or even plywood. With fiberglass its no problem, and you can see that you filling the whole void.

#3 And make sure you understand this, I the world of barns, factories, warehouses, metal buildings...they all use fiberglass. Maybe cellulose is great for a 2x4 framed wall with the studs 16" on center in a house but were workign with a whole diffrent style of construction here. I mean the #1 pole barn builder in the nation, Morton pole buildings insulate with fiberglass.

This is the info I used to pick my material, and for the record if cost was not a factor I would have done the spray foam there is nothing better. and for some extra reading here is some defense for fiberglass http://www.clarkstoninsulation.com/frequently-asked-que...nsulation.html#blown

I admit though its another person like Adam that sells and installs product, but Clarkston does do both cellulose and fiberglass and still recomends fiberglass over cellulose.

I wonder why companys like Owen's Corning and John's Manville have not went out of bussiness?
Scott

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AmoritaSailing,

My mistake, I didn't remember you had a metal building, not a stick frame.

Also, I don't bash foam because it is a good product but like I said, cellulose is better overall. Fiberglass has its place, which for the most part isn't in a stick house.

I might sell cellulose(and other products for that matter) but I don't intend to screw a customer just because I might make more money one way instead of another for my boss. I give people the honest answer for any question they have, regardless of whether we carry the product or not. I'm not into making people buy something that they don't need. We have a lot of repeat customers because of this and some that switched to us because other companies didn't have a clue what they were doing.

Also, there is some incorrect information on that site but I'm not going to go into it. Companies like Owens and other fiberglass manufacturers are still in business because you will always need one form or another of fiberglass and they do great marketing. I have yet to see a cellulose manufacturer do any TV ads(or any other for that matter, except maybe in a home improvement magazine). Also, the average home owner really doesn't have any idea what they actually need, just whats cheaper and easy to buy.

Just a side note:
I hope my previous post don't sound like they have any anger in them. They weren't meant that way. Just defending what I was saying. Good luck!

Like to add one more thing. Be sure that the metal building manufacture understands that you insulated the ceiling with such a high R factor. Reason being is the lack of natural heat loss and snow melt that occurs. That adds a lot of weight on the roof when the snow does not melt off during the winter.
When we install radiant heat to buildings of this type we must take lack of snow melt into the load factor placed on the roof.
A lot of these metal pole buildings lack enough strength to support high snow loads if heated with such types of systems. Check to be sure.

Our building is post framed, but with metal sides, and a shingle roof. the trusses are 2'o.c. the supplier knew I was planning to finish and heat the barn.

quote:

Originally posted by The Home Care Club LLC:
Like to add one more thing. Be sure that the metal building manufacture understands that you insulated the ceiling with such a high R factor. Reason being is the lack of natural heat loss and snow melt that occurs. That adds a lot of weight on the roof when the snow does not melt off during the winter.
When we install radiant heat to buildings of this type we must take lack of snow melt into the load factor placed on the roof.
A lot of these metal pole buildings lack enough strength to support high snow loads if heated with such types of systems. Check to be sure.

I wouldn't worry too much about this - a lot of pole barns aren't even heated, and even if they were, you'd still have to design the trusses assuming they weren't. It would be irresponsible and possibly illegal to assume that a building will be heated 24/7 all winter long for the life of the building.

Plus if the barn was never heated the snow would not melt off and you would still have to factor in the snow weight.